What do you consider "higher RPM"?

My primary concern would be the big end of the factory con rods distorting and spinning a rod bearing.

What specific concerns do you have?

 

I don't know. It's hard to find guys that actually do internals and push the limits.

But I call high RPM anything higher than stock. TS looks to be doing 9K. So that's what I would shoot for if not a little more, maybe 10K. I'll have to work the math and see what it looks like though.

Right now I'm doing 8.5K on the zetec. Haven't had any issues yet. The trans is the hold up from what I'm seeing. The syncros don't like the RPM and shifting at high RPM can be a bit of a chore. I really should have Terry build me a box. But a thinner fluid does help this issue from what I've found.


But my main concern is if the stock pump can handle the RPM?
With the zetec the pump gear was cast and weak. High RPM it was failure prone and may shatter, hence the CFM gear.

 

That kind of RPM gets real expensive, and the lack of power at lower RPMS makes really high winding motors suck on the street

 

That's what everyone thinks, but I have no issues with mine. I have solid TQ from idle on up. I don't have to switch gears to pass (but it takes the fun factor away) and I can easily tootle around 30mph in 5th all I want and accelerate.

A peaky engine, yes, a PITA to DD. But one with a very broad TQ curve isn't.

 

I have never seen a 10k rpm motor with a broad torque curve, even the massive displacement pro-mod and pro-stock motors built and dyno'ed at the engine shop I worked at. Variable valve timing can help with that to an extent.

Plenty of motors will rev well past their HP peak, but that doesn't make the car any faster to over rev them. You basically want the shift recovery to be at your peak torque RPM as a generalized rule of thumb.

Big cost and longevity difference between a 7500 rpm motor and a 9500 rpm motor.


Good luck with your endevour.

 

I havent heard of any widespread oiling issues, but here is some food for thought:

http://www.turborangerforums.com/showthread.php?t=6026

Cosworth offers a high volume pump, and the mazdaspeed unit looks like an upgrade as well

tb1999 on here had a high revving race 2.3. dont know if hes on anymore but you might want to search for his threads/ shoot him a PM

EDIT: heres his build thread if you feel like sifting through it http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220779

 

Good info and links there.....I had read the beginnings of that tb1999 thread along time ago but forgot about it and now its an epic thread!

Looks like an accusump could be cheap insurance.

And I'm a huge Cosworth whore...but I'm wondering if they aren't just selling some stock application oil pump like they do with some of their other parts....

Eric Burmeister runs a very well built turbocharged Mazda 3 rally car.
He's running the 2.3.
He seems to know his stuff on Duratec/MZR's.

He ended up running the Cosworth/Titan UK dry sump that he's talking about in the following quote.
IIRC not just to prevent oiling isssues but that and so he could lower the engine without clearance issues.
But he talks about oil pumps too.

From a rallyanarchy thread:

"The Mazda6 has the biggest oil pump. Better than the Ranger/Mazda truck, Tribute/Escape, Mazda3, Focus, etc. They all have different pumps. Get the Mazda6 and change the spring.

Titan UK makes a nice low profile cast aluminum oil pan that allows a much lower engine mounting, but its too expensive and is made for use with the 2.0 oil pump (takes a lot of machining and custom pickup to work with the good pump)."

 

rpm cost money. How high do you want to spin a motor? Have a look at a Cosworth formula atlantic motor. I don't believe you'll have any problems w/ the stock pump.

 

Go for a 6500-7000 rpm 2.3L or 2.5L, high rpms belong on the race course or drag strip. It takes unfriendly gearing to use rpms to the fullest.

 

Go for a 6500-7000 rpm 2.3L or 2.5L, high rpms belong on the race course or drag strip. It takes unfriendly gearing to use rpms to the fullest.

That's kinda the point [facepalm]

So there are only 3 people I can talk to who have actually gone beyond the stock limiter?
Billy (time attack car), tb1999 (SCCA car) and Top Speed (drag car)

 

Your putting your self in a box= doing a n/a motor, unless for rules or class of racing. Don't get me wrong, I love hi rpm motors too, specialy v/8's.

 

When a con rod leaves through the side of the block, it isn't an oiling issue that caused it. It's a piston speed problem.

 

There is a costly but VERY NICE dry sump that fits inside the oil pan for the duratec , I have a few rally guys and some SCCA guys living a long time at 7800 and making good power
Me , I would do the 2.5 you wouldnt need to turn it as hard and it makes a lot more TQ and still spin her to about 75-7700

Did topspeed even finish there duratec build they started what 3 years ago ?

I am working on a 2.5 Duratec turbo engine and looking for a 5 speed waging to turn into a weekend track car

Tom

 

So you really are considering this swap then?


The only oiling issues I've seen here on the forum were from people hitting road debris and it hitting the oil filter since it hangs low on the front of the engine unlike the zetec's or from improper maintenance.

If anything I think you'll be fine oiling wise. My sister had a Mazda6 she only changed the oil like 3 times in, bought new and made it 100k with a complete lack of maintenance. So that tells me these are some pretty stout motors if they can put up with that abuse.

 

So you really are considering this swap then?

Long as things go well, yes. It seems like the path for me to take if I'm going to stick with the cars. Which I do want to do.


Some inspirational videos:

 

I helped and do the tuning on the Red 2.5 swap , he is a member on here

Tom

 

Man that top vid sounds so sweet.....................

Just a thought.................dunno about Duratec innards at all but if the pump or after at any point seals up with just dead flat milled steel part or plate and no gasket then consider air leak drawing across what seems to be a point that cannot leak. We think pump seals well enough and the oil seals the surface there but on the CBF Honda bikes we used to race there were occasional rod breakages when the engine had 'some sort of oiling issue or problem' like lack of supply. The engines could be built with bigger pumps, problems then could get even worse. Lots set the rod clearances looser to get around it by flooding with oil. It turns out that the pumps were sucking air through the machined pump surfaces, a somewhat small pump pickup tube diameter made that worse as well. Problem did not show much, just occasionally. There was an oil path direction body that added to problem as it sealed by machined flat with no gasket too. What would happen is this..........occasionally at max demand and rpm the engine sucks minor amounts of air when it could not get enough oil due to system sizing, the air then stacked up in oil filter until it got to be big enough amount that at some arbitrary point the engine then for a fractional second sucks air to then nix a rod bearing and resultant engine part disassociation.

The cure was to drill a very small hole in top high of filter compartment so that any small amount of air could then purge through an added line and back to sump, it kept the system pretty much full of oil only. Liquids do not compress, they also don't stretch either, if pump can't get oil it will get other.................it is a positive displacement pump after all. Might replace an accusump there.

 

When my 2.0 was NA (cosworth IM, cams, header, exhaust, tune, stock bottom end), the rod bearings lasted around 30,000 miles with rev limiter at 7800rpm, and always running fresh 5w30 oil. It started making a light "tic" noise, but it was getting louder.
I removed the oil pan to check the rod bearings. I think the stock oil pump can't handle rpms higher than 7300... 7400.

4


2 e 3


Just throw new bearings and give a light polish on the crankshaft.

 

I don't think it is an oil supply issue.
But doesn't really matter, these things just don't live very long with a steady high rpm diet.