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Theory behind the dreaded clutch shudder?

16K views 82 replies 19 participants last post by  sfhess  
#1 ·
We all talk and read about the problem since the early '12 MY.

But what do you think that cause the shudder?

Clutches worn out (dragging abnormally) ... oil contamination (bad seals)... bad software?

I've yet seen a report of the root cause of many clutches changes people have received.


People who had their clutches set replaced have seen their state? How it was?

Just curious...
 
#2 ·
Well for me on my 2012 the shudder was brief, the TCM was failing and was replaced and reflashed. I've since traded in for a newer Focus but the previous car went another few thousand miles with no shudder. Then again, I felt like I got pretty lucky with that car considering I drove it like an idiot. Maybe the cars need to be driven like crap? Lol


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#3 ·
My Ford service advisor told me it's a faulty design. As the clutches wear the computer has trouble compensating. He told me Ford will be abandoning the technology in the future because of all the malfunctioning cars they have sold. He's having a hard time understanding why Ford will still be selling these cars through 2017.
 
#5 ·
Mine does this in bad traffic or when I have the car loaded up with people.
Ford explained to me that the car has a manuel transmission controlled by a computer and that the "shift strategy" had to be changed.
So basically the car must be going for fuel economy and has you in too high of a gear. it is the same shutter you get when trying to go up a hill in 4th gear.
 
#11 ·
If this were "for the most part.. a software issue", do you honestly think Ford would be paying out thousands of dollars for each DPS6 clutch replacement? They would simply reprogram and send customers on their way. Ford is a publicly traded corporation and they have to answer to shareholders. They don't just give out free clutches unless a software reprogram fails and diagnostics warrant it.
 
#10 ·
Ford has big problems with shuddering.. Not just the focus and fiesta. There newer pickup trucks do the exact same thing, Google it.

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G
#17 ·
Ford has big problems with shuddering.. Not just the focus and fiesta. There newer pickup trucks do the exact same thing, Google it.

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try driving a Toyota Tacoma . it's called flexible lockup, in a taco 40 mph up regardless of the gear it is in, they off and on apply the TC lockup to a point that one feels like they are driving a fully covered rumble street road .
 
#13 ·
Software wise, Ford does require a download of their latest version before testing for current "shudder" levels to determine if any clutch work is warranted.

Following their changes over time, it's hard to tell EXACTLY what they've done - but it seems like a LOT of attention has been paid to trying to make it work as close in feel to a torque converter style as possible. The first revision mentioned here for the '12 models was disliked by many due to it's "softening" of the shifting, and it seems variations on that theme have followed.

Just an uninformed guess (don't KNOW their objectives), but IMHO more attention to making it work well WHILE STILL FEELING DIFFERENT might be more helpful in "fixing" the tuning portion.

IDK just what Tom's solution is beyond what he's mentioned, but with much of his tuning starting out from a performance perspective I've got a feeling it "feels" more like an automated manual when he's done with it and that has a lot to do with the "fix".
 
#20 ·
IDK just what Tom's solution is beyond what he's mentioned, but with much of his tuning starting out from a performance perspective I've got a feeling it "feels" more like an automated manual when he's done with it and that has a lot to do with the "fix".
Your close , when you load my Custom Tune it feels like a regular old school automatic , it isnt rough , it doesent bang into gear , it doesnt shift hard changing gears , its smooth transition shifting , you keep your MPG most say it gets better , shifts are quicker and more responsive , Most with my tune say that thats the way it should of come from Ford

Tom
 
#14 ·
For "theories" there have been many, and some for different situations when shudder can exist.

Most common for shudder that develops after time on a unit that didn't prev. have an issue is too much overheating of the clutch(s) in stop & go or similar low speed operation. That's where the "clutch scrub" theory comes in, the hard acceleration involved is the only way to get the automated system to do the smooth engagement under harder than normal throttle needed to try to smooth out a clutch that has developed "chatter" marks on it's components.

This is only one of the theories, shudder on a low speed turn is another common situation with more involved theories.
 
#15 ·
'Most common for shudder that develops after time on a unit that didn't prev. have an issue is too much overheating of the clutch(s) in stop & go or similar low speed operation.'

Probably hit the nail right on the head. When was the last time you saw an ATX with ten DRY clutch discs in a single clutch pack, give that some thought. Then look at how other car makers do the same thing as Ford here, they go wet clutch. Problem solved.

It is virtually impossible to get a computer program that will cover all the ways a dry clutch can heat up to then drag and not release completely to then screw up the overlap times between two of them. Practically every shift will need a different overlap timing from the software.

Not so with wet clutch packs like in ATX, they release hard or soft and anywhere in between since they are thoroughly lubed to not get so hot and they stay relatively the same thickness.

Ford messed up by going ultra-cheap with a DRY clutch setup. A big disc like used there can vary up to .020" in thickness or more easy depending on how hot at the time and how much friction material fray is above the true lining level. Meaning the software is having to compensate hugely there and all over the place. Try simply miking a dry disc, it can vary up to .010" right there in your hand. If marcel is used even worse.

Shudder in dry clutches is from being almost tight enough to lock up but then pops loose due to uneven friction heights varying all over the map. About the time the software has learned right for the prevailing condition then driver changes it based on use at the time and then software must relearn again. The heavy variance all over the map of the absolute clutch thickness and X two discs is what the problem is. Added to that are the different speeds each clutch turns at since for a different gear. The software to correct for that must be Godlike in its' instant learning abilities and I think we are not there yet.

Yes, leaking seals made it worse but the design I think is heavily flawed to begin with. Big dry discs heat up totally different across the width of the facing and no way to stop that. The outside perimeter will always be hotter since more material rubs there at same speed. Meaning no way to keep discs close to same temp all the way out to the OD.
 
#18 ·
Your basing everything on the clutches being dry and heat , that isnt the issues , Many have the shudder when taking off in the morning or leaving work , heat makes the issue worse as heat makes most issues worse but blaming it on dry clutches and heat is way off base from the actual issue and fix
If the dry DCT is so bad , and heat is the issue why can I correct it with only software
I think the dry DCT is a great idea and with proper software to make it all work works very well

Tom
 
#16 ·
Ford should not have trusted Getreg when they said the dry clutch would be fine.

Ford should have made it very clear that it is not an automatic transmission and you should not treat it as such.

Ford should have disregarded shooting for fuel economy, put in a stable shift program and offered reimbursement to the original owners for any lost fuel mileage, like Hyundai did.
 
#19 ·
WHY ? For each person having shudder issues 3+ Focus DCT owners dont and love there Focus DCT , It is 100% an automatic transmission and if properly tuned you drive it 100% like an automatic and if you dont believe that purchase my Custom Tune with its money back guarantee and you will see what I am saying is true

Tom
 
#25 ·
Tom's tune sounds good but I have some observations. The number of owners with the tune is small compared to the number of DCT owners out there. Good results may be a result of small sample size. Also a 30 days warranty sounds good but DCT problems in my case manifested after several months, not 30 days. Finally with all its financial and technical resources why has Ford not discovered the fix provided by Tom? or make arrangements with Tom to provide his fix to customers with DCT problems? Surely they would rather perform a tune then replace clutches. Not casting doubt on the satisfaction of Tom's customers. Just observations. Comments?
 
#27 ·
Ok Ill do the Money back guarantee for 60 days , Most get there cars back from Ford and with in a few hundred miles if that much they know if they still have the shudder

Ford isnt going to ask me what I am doing to fix this , I look at it this way they have been throwing clutches and software updates at it for 4 years it isnt working , My Custom tune works and many have been running it for 6-12 months and no issues

I welcome to all observations , Try it and see for your self

Tom
 
#26 ·
Shudder clutch issues can show up STONE COLD if wear is bad enough, I've seen it more than once, and all pretty much with dry clutches all the way back to the '60s. Extremely rare for wet clutches to do it. Think about what it actually IS, a lock-slip-lock-slip-lock-slip over and over again in quick succession. Even faster in frequency and it then becomes a squeal commonly like stone COLD brake pads maybe????

They do it because the disc is big and heats different in the center vs. the outside, why ATX clutches are relatively small in radius coverage. To heat uniformly. Being wet adds to that even more. Somebody here in denial of the physics like usual, like 'buy my product' instantly renders all physics null and void. LOL.

'For each person having shudder issues 3+ Focus DCT owners dont and love there Focus DCT'

Well of course they would, at least until it happens. Look at how many comment that they fear it, that fosters no sense of reliability. Kinda like owning a SPI equipped Focus...........................like that statement could ever mean anything concrete and what you do best, obfuscate. By the way, a one in four fail ratio is pretty much enough to guarantee a bankruptcy in most businesses.

Let me know when you can get every single shift to occur so smoothly that the trans seems like a CVT one, what our race ATX did, you could not even tell where the gear changes were at low load without a tach. The shifts were invisible until you got on it hard, then they became positive and so fast with so little overlap you had trouble thinking you had just heard it. I doubt rather seriously you'll ever be going there anytime in the future............

'It is 100% an automatic transmission...'

I'd be careful with that, lots are using Ford's saying of that in their lawsuits, by saying it you are directly comparing the ATX to it and that won't hold up in court at all I'm betting. The space shuttle launches automatically too, don't think I'd call it smooth though. More obfuscation with the ending 'buy my product' after all the claims you don't do that.

Personally I have this series of cars firmly locked in my head as 'DO NOT BUY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! models, you buy then don't complain when you get it later. All Ford has shown me there is how far they are willing to sacrifice their long term customer base insisting they are still a quality car company and that the customers are all wrong in criticizing the crap cars. The mind control efforts are by themselves enough to turn me away forever.
 
#29 ·
Shudder clutch issues can show up STONE COLD if wear is bad enough, I've seen it more than once, and all pretty much with dry clutches all the way back to the '60s. Extremely rare for wet clutches to do it. Think about what it actually IS, a lock-slip-lock-slip-lock-slip over and over again in quick succession. Even faster in frequency and it then becomes a squeal commonly like stone COLD brake pads maybe????.
Your still looking at the issue as temperature related , does more heat cause the shudder to get worse yes , but the root cause is how the clutch is engaged , this is one part of what I change
Somebody here in denial of the physics like usual, like 'buy my product' instantly renders all physics null and void. LOL. .
Right I am doing a Money back Guarantee because I want to waste my time shipping and receiving back xcal4 flashers and returning money , You talking about a Transmission / clutch assy that you havent even laid your hands on , you dont have a clue how the TCM works and what it does if you did you wouldnt be here making comments like your making
Have you even taking the time before bashing me to search all the ones that have my Custom Tune and it has 100% stopped there shudder or are you like always just here to bash me ,

'For each person having shudder issues 3+ Focus DCT owners dont and love there Focus DCT'

Well of course they would, at least until it happens. Look at how many comment that they fear it, that fosters no sense of reliability. Kinda like owning a SPI equipped Focus...........................like that statement could ever mean anything concrete and what you do best, obfuscate. By the way, a one in four fail ratio is pretty much enough to guarantee a bankruptcy in most businesses. .
I am not trying to obfuscate anyone , I have stated facts to things far out side of your understanding , why are you even in here ? Just to bash me ? You dont own a MK3 , you havent worked on one and you surely dont understand how they work
Let me know when you can get every single shift to occur so smoothly that the trans seems like a CVT one, what our race ATX did, you could not even tell where the gear changes were at low load without a tach. The shifts were invisible until you got on it hard, then they became positive and so fast with so little overlap you had trouble thinking you had just heard it. I doubt rather seriously you'll ever be going there anytime in the future.............
I will let you know when I can get a 100% perfect like you described ...NOW ! 100% perfect smooth till you go to aggressive driving or sport mode then she will let you know she is shifting but not so hard that it to rough , again you dont know this DCT and you dont know what your talking about
'It is 100% an automatic transmission...'

I'd be careful with that, lots are using Ford's saying of that in their lawsuits, by saying it you are directly comparing the ATX to it and that won't hold up in court at all I'm betting. The space shuttle launches automatically too, don't think I'd call it smooth though. More obfuscation with the ending 'buy my product' after all the claims you don't do that..
I didnt compare a ATX to a DCT , I said the DCT is 100% an automatic transmission , you go to D and it can go to 6th gear and back to 1st with out touching anything again , thats an automatic

Tom
 
#28 ·
Frosted - for a comment I wouldn't buy Tom's tune for shudder (sorry Tom) UNLESS I'd run out of options through Ford - still had troubles I didn't want to live with - AND really didn't want to get rid of the car (happy with it other than that issue/didn't want to take a hit on a trade).

In that situation, improvements would be obvious or not right away. Prev. Ford computer updates have only shown very short term results (if any), so a month (or two as he offered you) should be plenty to tell if it was only a short term improvement.

Dealer update that seems to have short term positive results is a "relearn" of the touch points, reflash to a different tune doesn't do that so it wouldn't have an effect from that cause.
 
#30 ·
All I can say is that I raced dual clutch disc cars for several years and as well set multiplate slipper clutches on pro stock cars running at 200 mph. Shudder was the name of the day there and we had no computers to cure it. The shudder severe enough that sometimes it broke frame rails. Please don't show us how unintelligent you can be by discounting that as worthless on a simple little no horsepower car like these. It shows you can't relate important factors or commonality. You DO realize there is NO DIFFERENCE in the basic way they work and have for 100 years right? I REBUILT the twin clutches and PPs myself, piece of cake.

ARE you dumb enough to think that one must work with something to know it? I spent 35 years coming into plants to run sight unseen printing presses up to a hundred foot long with 10+ computer systems on them and all not the same programs and maybe 100,000 moving parts and so many things to know about and set you couldn't count. Splicers, tensioners, variable speed infeeds and aligners, multiple printing units (usually 10 or so), coaters, UV dryers, heat and chill equipment and emission control from that, imprinters, ink jet equipment, magnetic encoders, multiple trimmer heads, gluers, scoring and perforating machines, multiple cameras to watch all of it. I'm out of breath, commonly most of that all could be on one machine. I got to handle like 20 different at $20 million or more apiece for the installations and I was the head press leader with a full crew under me since I was 19 years old. Nobody trained me at ALL for any of that and I had never even seen the machines before I walked into the damn door. I could glean the important stuff out of a 500 page operator's manual in about 5 minutes though, of course to you that's garbage. Give me a freakin' break. You play with a simple tinkertoy and think that's something. The machine I worked could have had 10 or more clutches of various types in it. Like your timing ramblings, you think a simple DOHC system is hard (it MUST be set ONLY on a DYNO!.......and utter CRAP!) when I set the equivalent of 10 of them at a time. ALL of that stuff was VCT type equipment, I did the R&R maintenance on it ALL. Virtually every setting on a printing machine is changeable on the run.

Don't tell me you have replicated that ATX action, you haven't and I would be an idiot to think you have. Why all the car tech articles now also say the DCT type trans seems to be on its' way out at Ford VW, Acura, Honda, Fiat, etc. NOBODY can replicate standard ATX smoothness with a DCT and the customers know it and have clearly said so, but YOU can. LOL. The technology now heading to China as nobody else wants it, they are using it on the lower dog cars there. Too late to get everybody on board here for it..........it's DONE.

I'm sorry you can't dump what's in your brain to readjust to 'normal operation' for this or that particular day, I learned to do it some time in the late '80s when the job not only had me on those complicated machines but in quick 24 hr. or less turnaround fashion which was virtually unknown back then on time sensitive financial stuff that paid me as much as a bank president made back then. You had to give those people what they wanted and you didn't have time to think much about doing it before it already had to be DONE. One of the most important skills was the ability to tear off something you were deep into to come back to it later with zero production loss. As a result I got VERY good at calling BS on things I have never had much experience in and still to this day I can do it with about 80-90% accuracy. A little THINKING makes up for years of hands on experience but you don't get that. You would have lasted maybe 5 minutes on my press crew, you can't evolve.

I had ZERO training on all of the engines I rebuilt too and most of them high output drag cars. So many I can't count, doesn't matter you think somebody must have your exact one and the knowledge is wasted on you. Self-limitation is death.
 
#31 ·
'You talking about a Transmission / clutch assy that you havent even laid your hands on'

Funny, I've never been inside a 4F27E either, it doesn't stop me from helping plenty of people there does it? A little clue, I never was trained in ATX either but every one I've built (first one of each) has lasted, well, the first one at like 1985 is still running, and like 5 of them now, all run fine. What's so hard there?

Manual transmissions are even easier than that, the only hard part would be software, better be careful. I learned to build and network my own PCs the same way........no training there. The first one worked perfectly from the second I turned it on. Nice. I'm smart enough to write code if I wanted to, be glad I don't.

'I didnt compare a ATX to a DCT , I said the DCT is 100% an automatic transmission , you go to D and it can go to 6th gear and back to 1st with out touching anything again , thats an automatic'

The court at least understands how people think that Ford saying DCT is an automatic trans is misleading, your fine point won't cut it there as I've said. Like usual you don't get it.

Done here.............
 
#32 ·
HeHe - more than one way to skin a cat, just need to remember WHY you were doing it in the first place & find a way that accomplishes the task.

Chuckle every time I see them setting the weights on a multi-plate drag clutch - reminds me each time of the similar setup on a snowmobile primary pulley (CVT). Engagement RPM & pressure vs. RPM there.
 
#33 ·
This isn't a dick measuring contest. Let's not start another bashing thread. You can have an engineering degree and 10 years of experience and still get shown up by a 20 year old so calm your titties guys. Tom is correct when he says that most of the issues of the DCT are computer related and not physical. Yeah probably more physical for 2014 and down but 2015 and up about half of those complaints have gone down and the rest are whiners who just don't know how a Dry Dual Clutch works.

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#37 ·
Tom is correct when he says that most of the issues of the DCT are computer related and not physical.
The preponderance of evidence both from the numerous anecdotes in this forum as well as Ford's diagnostic procedure for this problem would indicate otherwise. One of the primary problems form early on with the initial 2012 MK3 was leaking seals. Software might mask that shudder temporarily but it will not magically stop oil contamination of the clutches. Again, Ford corporate would not be replacing these clutches and seals at considerable expense if there were a legitimate alternative.
 
#34 ·
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...1207/OEM06/312079988/once-promising-dual-clutch-transmissions-lose-favor-in-u.s.

Say that again..............the B-2 flies now but only because it has a 50 million dollar flight computer in it as compared to the XB-35 or XB-49.............some things can be done but no way can you make money at it. The Bell tiltrotor is more of the same. Those 'whiners' now have the upper hand..................and the others not smart enough to know when being screwed??? Could it be?............
 
#35 ·
Whiners indeed. Like you said amc, shuddering in a DCT is considered normal due to inherent design. Slippage and excessive wear aren't normal though, that I can agree on. I have a 2015 so I can't really speak for the others but so far I get shuddering only in stop and go traffic and even then it's very rare. I think ford is finally fixing the problem but by now it's too late. Too many powershift transmissions on the road that are faulty to be able to successfully do something about it without taking an enormous financial Hit.

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#43 · (Edited)
Im by far NOT the smartest person in the room , The DCT has to be either an Automatic or a manual , you can call it a manual thats controlled automatically

Webster: Simple Definition of automatic : a machine or device : having controls that allow something to work or happen without being directly controlled by a person

Webster: Simple Definition of manual: operated or controlled with the hands or by a person : operated only with the hands and without electric power

I know it doesnt have planetary gears I have had and seen several of DCT`s apart just to better understand the DCT and how it works , Planetary gears isnt what makes an automatic an automatic how the device operates does

Im not trying to be the smartest guy in the room , I just want people to better understand this transmission , how it works , what its issues are and that there is a fix for the shudder if they choose to use it

Tom
 
#46 ·
Im by far the smartest person in the room , The DCT has to be either an Automatic or a manual , you can call it a manual thats controlled automatically

Webster: Simple Definition of automatic : a machine or device : having controls that allow something to work or happen without being directly controlled by a person

Webster: Simple Definition of manual: operated or controlled with the hands or by a person : operated only with the hands and without electric power

I know it doesnt have planetary gears I have had and seen several of DCT`s apart just to better understand the DCT and how it works , Planetary gears isnt what makes an automatic an automatic how the device operates does

Im not trying to be the smartest guy in the room , I just want people to better understand this transmission , how it works , what its issues are and that there is a fix for the shudder if they choose to use it

Tom
By conventional terms, sure it's an automatic it does all the work for you, technical terms, no it's not.

It's innards are that of a input output shaft manual transmission with helical cut gears that lacks both planetary gears and a torque converter.
 
#44 ·
It's all about just learning how to drive with this transmission. This is not a conventional automatic and don't expect it to work that way no matter what. From my experience, you just have to have a soft foot in the low gears to allow the DCT to smoothly shift gears. I don't know about you but I have learned how to drive with it after driving my Focus which really haven't had any shuttering issues since it was new and my wife's Fiesta with the DCT (2011 version). If you adapt to it, it will adapt to you.
 
#48 ·
That's a bummer. I wish I could hear it and drive it to see what's going on. I'd say just stay up to date with the DCT software updates and be patient with it. Have the transmission checked for any leaks, if it needs its clutches and seals changed, and if it needs more trans fluid or other lubricants. It's wierd that it started doing that all of a sudden.
 
#52 ·
Silly argument.

To be pedantic you need to call it an automated manual, and then you can continue by describing the exact type as desired (dual dry clutch twin gearbox alternate gear selecting....).

And the most common alternative as a torque converter automatic, adding planetary geared/sequential shifting etc. as desired. Don't forget to specify lockup type and in what gears if any.

How about VW's old automatic stick shift? There's an oddball for ya!



Until I see it for myself, I won't believe ANY automated manual can behave EXACTLY like a torque converter type. I don't expect to see a demonstration of virtually unlimited smooth "creeping" at any speed.


For the side comment on tuning a 1.0 Ecoboost, Tom won't be able to do anything for them without a flash/scan tool company ready to do business in the States that supports them.