does disabling the egr produce any actual performance gains? i had heard it did and i tried it today on my 03 atx zx5 and it feels like the car pulls better from the line and threw 1st quicker.
Egr?
shabalaba16
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does disabling the egr produce any actual performance gains? i had heard it did and i tried it today on my 03 atx zx5 and it feels like the car pulls better from the line and threw 1st quicker.
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In concept, yes, it does help. In real application, its not enough to notice.
Unless you have some mods and a chip or tune to compensate, you could actually be hurting performance. Without the emissions air in the intake charge, the car is actually running a bit richer than normal, because that is un-metered intake air (no way for computer to compensate).
So, the better performance you felt was probably just your mind, or you fixed a small egr stumble the zetec's are known to have.
Unless you have some mods and a chip or tune to compensate, you could actually be hurting performance. Without the emissions air in the intake charge, the car is actually running a bit richer than normal, because that is un-metered intake air (no way for computer to compensate).
So, the better performance you felt was probably just your mind, or you fixed a small egr stumble the zetec's are known to have.
Believe it or not,the introduction of exhaust into the incoming air charge decreases the potential for detonation,or pinging.I used to $hitcan egr's all the time thinking old burnt gas can't help out anything,but I was wrong. In reality,the only time the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation)valve is open is under a partial throttle opening.At WOT (wide open throttle) the valve is closed.They are more of a benefit than a performance hinderance.Leave it on your car.
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Again we dont agree on this , First you wont get any deto at part throttle the only time you should ever see deto is WOT so it helping to decrease deto doesent fly
In time the EGR system will cause you more trouble then it is worth and all the parts are somewhat costly to change , I know of one guy that truely knows how to test the EGR system all the others start changing parts till they fix it then in most cases another part goes out soon , If you are doing performance changes to your Focus and i dont mean just a few boltons then removing the EGR will help , if the EGR was to hang open on a WOT run it wouldnt be good and i feel all FI should take it off or plug it
Tom
In time the EGR system will cause you more trouble then it is worth and all the parts are somewhat costly to change , I know of one guy that truely knows how to test the EGR system all the others start changing parts till they fix it then in most cases another part goes out soon , If you are doing performance changes to your Focus and i dont mean just a few boltons then removing the EGR will help , if the EGR was to hang open on a WOT run it wouldnt be good and i feel all FI should take it off or plug it
Tom
Tom,on a part throttle hillclimb,an engine with a malfunctioning EGR valve will ping,or preignite the fuel charge.Heard as a rattle,it is just as devastating to piston crowns and head gaskets as heavy detonation on a car accelerating with too much spark advance or an over lean fuel mixture,both causing an improper flame front.The egr system is quite simple,consisting of a valve that open and closes on signal from the ecm,based on engine load,coolant temp,incoming air temp,vehicle speed and throttle position.The dpfe sensor reads the differential in pressure before and after the valve to determine if it is actually working.Some applications do not require an EGR vave as their design does not require it for proper control of detonation and the associated NOX emissions.(SVTF does not have an EGR valve)For FI applications I would agree with you,no egr,although I do have it still operational on my PWSC Zetec.(But not on my '88 Mustang Vortech,which does not get street driven.....much, hehe...)
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So all cars that dont have a EGR are going to knock ?, what about the 40 or 50 Focu i have done and turned off the EGR they dont knock at light/Med load part throttle and the SVT as you pointed out does not even have a EGR so why isnt it Spk Knocking ? And i hope you say the VCT
Taking off the EGR WILL NOT cause your engine to Spk Knock . LOL you cant get preignition from lack of a EGR if you have preignition you have to much timing or to little octane
I have been doing this tooooooooo long and on to many cars , Book learning is great but there comes a point when you need to throw that book out the window and work with real world issues
Tom
Taking off the EGR WILL NOT cause your engine to Spk Knock . LOL you cant get preignition from lack of a EGR if you have preignition you have to much timing or to little octane
I have been doing this tooooooooo long and on to many cars , Book learning is great but there comes a point when you need to throw that book out the window and work with real world issues
Tom
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GZetec, Pm me sir.
I have been at this for a long time as well,Tom(over thirty years).I can't tell you why those particular vehicles that you have disabled the egr valves don't ping(possibly your tune helps them run more efficiently?),but I can tell you I have cured many dozens of cars with pinging issues simply by repairing their inoperative egr systems.Usually they are sent to me because they cannot pass the state emission test due to elevated NOx levels.The very first thing I check is whether the EGR system is operating.More than half of them will also complain of pinging up hills.Once repaired,they pass the test and noise complaints are gone as well.
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Yea more then likely there stuck open and dumping an enormous amout of extremely hot ,fuel spent air back into the intake system taking intake temps super high and causing pinging
I can tell you why all the cars i turn it off on dont ping , Because the EGR system IS NOT keeping them from pinging , Crap an EGR system wasent added on most cars till in the early to mid 70`s 40+ years and working fine with no EGR
Many newer cars dont have a EGR system
The EGR system main use is for emmissions nothing more
Tom
I can tell you why all the cars i turn it off on dont ping , Because the EGR system IS NOT keeping them from pinging , Crap an EGR system wasent added on most cars till in the early to mid 70`s 40+ years and working fine with no EGR
Many newer cars dont have a EGR system
The EGR system main use is for emmissions nothing more
Tom
"The EGR valve recirculates exhaust into the intake stream. Exhaust gases have already combusted, so they do not burn again when they are recirculated. These gases displace some of the normal intake charge. This chemically slows and cools the combustion process by several hundred degrees, thus reducing NOx formation and detonation.The design challenge :The EGR system of today must precisely control the flow of recirculated exhaust. Too much flow will retard engine performance and cause a hesitation on acceleration. Too little flow will increase NOx and cause engine ping. A well-designed system will actually increase engine performance and economy. Why? As the combustion chamber temperature is reduced, engine detonation potential is also reduced. This factor enabled the software engineers to write a more aggressive timing advance curve into the spark timing program. If the EGR valve is not flowing, onboard diagnostics (OBD) systems will set a code and the power control module (PCM) will use a backup timing curve that has less advance to prevent engine ping. Less timing advance means less performance and economy. Do your customer a favor and fix those EGR codes that you may have previously deemed as unimportant."
I know,just letters on a page.But I used to think egr was of no practical use till I was faced with cars that would not pass their emissions tests and were pinging.If nothing else we can agree to disagree.
I know,just letters on a page.But I used to think egr was of no practical use till I was faced with cars that would not pass their emissions tests and were pinging.If nothing else we can agree to disagree.
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Look you can copy words from a book all day long , you havent said one thing that you have done or tryed , just that you have had some cars come in and were pinging and REPAIRED the EGR and the pinging stoped sorry but that IS NOT proof that the EGR keeps and engine from Skp Knock
I understand how and what the EGR does and on a 100% all stock engine with everything working perfectly its a good emmissions tool to keep everything in check
This forum isnt about "How to get the best performance with my all stock engine" People want to do mods that will alter how the EGR system effects how it was ment to work
Again tho only facts you keep repeating are thise your reading from a book and those you worked on that the EGR was faulty and not working properly YES a faulty EGR will make it Spk Knock , ping. BUT removing it wont
Tom
I understand how and what the EGR does and on a 100% all stock engine with everything working perfectly its a good emmissions tool to keep everything in check
This forum isnt about "How to get the best performance with my all stock engine" People want to do mods that will alter how the EGR system effects how it was ment to work
Again tho only facts you keep repeating are thise your reading from a book and those you worked on that the EGR was faulty and not working properly YES a faulty EGR will make it Spk Knock , ping. BUT removing it wont
Tom
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I have a decent example of this, we built a 351m/400 in a 1979 Bronco. It was actually one of the guys vehicles that works here. When we were done, the engine was done pretty healthy. We basically did Forged pistons (10:1 compression), FRPP cam, Edelbrock intake and carb (off the shelf) headers and full exhaust. At the time i had a 1995 Escort GT bought brand new. After we tuned the Bronco (this was done on the inspection machine) it was burning cleaner than my Escort GT. It had no EGR provisions at all or converters and was cleaner even with all the Motorsport parts that are supposed to be illegal and non-emmisions compliant. I do understand the principal behind what your saying QQQQ, but, all these things are not ness. for a clean burning engine. Personally i think most of it is governmental BS. That Bronco alone showed that all that BS isnt needed.
I don't doubt your readings at all,however I am sure you were not measuring Nox.I am in a state that measures NOX as a PPM for emissions inspection.If your vehicle fails,you must have it repaired or remove it from the road.When a vehicle is brought to me (I am a Level 1 Certified Emission Repair station) with high nox readings 99% of the time,the egr system is malfunctioning.
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Yes, we were. And when we were done we had the print out in a pie chart showing everything because we couldnt believe it was that low also. And in NC we do measure that. By the way, i work for Ford, thats where we did that.
The Cleveland series engines/heads were notorious for poor emissions,especially Nox.It is quite possible with your choice in camshafts and carb tuning,you were able to work around what Ford could not,and better the stock systems efficiency.I am not doubting it can be done at all,however,when I am up against a car that has failed Nox,the only solution I have at my disposal is to repair the malfunctioning egr system.Are your measurements taken during an idle test or on a dyno?We must pass IM240 requirements,which is the vehicle on a dyno,accelerated and decelerated from 0-60mph for 4 minutes.Tough test to pass with no cats and no egr.On an older vehicle (pre-96) the requirements are much more lenient and only a two speed idle test is required.
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