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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why wouldn't Ford put a 6MT in there Flagship small car you might ask.
All the other makes have 6MT, or an option for it.

The reason in sheer brilliance by Ford!

Cliff Note:(Short story is the performance. 6MT and 6AT on econocars seem to kill performance but boost MPGs. The 5MT offers the best balance for a driver looking for good MPGs but still have a zippy car (plus a tall 6th would lug to much at 55mph requiring downshifting often)).

Take a look at 0-60 times (by C/D)
SE Sport HB 5MT 7.3
SEL 6PS 8.2

A few reasons why the 5MT should be slower than the 6spd powershit (*and a 6MT).
Shorter gearing should lead to faster acceleration. *
Time to shift a manual 500ms - 1s (average)
Time it takes a DCG to shift 8ms-250ms

Accelerating with the 5MT
1st gear shift at 6500rpm(35mph) takes 500ms to shift to second rev up to 6500rpm(60mph). 7.3s with possibly a .5s loss because of driver.


Lets say the 6 speed Powershift takes 150ms between shifts
It revs to 6500rpm(32mph) in first gear at and revs to ~6300rpm(~50mph) in second gear and 3rd from 4100rpm(50mph) to 4900rpm(60mph).
that's 0-60 in 8.2s with a loss of .300s because of transmission.

now with the same gearing as the powershift in a 6MT would take 8.9s to get to 60. (i would think 8.5-8.7s)

A look at other cars with 6MT
0-60 2011 Mazda3 2.5 (7.6s)
0-60 2011 Cruze 1.4l turbo (9s)

And the big one, Euro spec focus with 1.6l ecoboost (180hp / 177 lb/ft 199 overboost) and 6MT 0-60 in 7.7s!!! 160/147 beats out 180/177 because of 5MT!

Ford knows us americans like performance so instead of offering Three 6 speed transmission that all offer the same MPGs. The manual would have no redeeming factors other than being a manual.
If you want better MPGs you will fork out an extra ~$1000 for an auto.
If you want performance you can stick to 5MT but suffer slightly at the pump.

I also feel
<200hp 5MT (less lugging on thruway)
>200hp 6MT (make better use of power)
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
and if ford offered a 6mt that was geared the same as the 5MT 1-3 but had the 6spd PS 3-6 then it would take away from sales from the powershift. and have a crappy 3-4 change that are too close together.


I can't think of any small affordable car that has a 6speed MT and less than 200hp that has a second gear that goes to 60mph

anyone can enlighten me?
 

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I can't think of any small affordable car that has a 6speed MT and less than 200hp that has a second gear that goes to 60mph

anyone can enlighten me?
Well, the SVT will do a bit over 60 MPH in second gear, although I wouldn't have called it affordable when new. I think a lot of people paid over 20K for new SVTs, which is kind of outrageous, but whatever.

It's nice to have a 6 speed, all the gears are useful if you're particular about staying in the powerband.
 

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Well I would want a 6 speed with all the same gearing and ratios of the five speed as is, except the sixth gear would be for cruising at 60mph and up. (so you could use it at 55mph but only on level . Any hill and a downshift at 55 would be way better.
Anyone who uses a manual should be happy with this. (That is if it pisses you off then a automatic is for you...)

I am perfectly happy with the five speed, and only wnt one more top overdrive gear for high speed cruising .

Personally I would gear the whole thing a little higher, so first is not so low.
I KNOW it is a tradeoff on start off a steep hill...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yea I see how topping it with a sixth would help with a few mpgs but you would be out of it 90 percent of the time unless you live somewhere completly flat or going 65+mph. Im very content with it being a 5 speed... Less shifting :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
And I guess my whole post was that the 5spd is great and its part marketing and part performance why only a 5 not a 6. Though the st will be able to make use of a 6speed thats geared higher
 

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Well I would want a 6 speed with all the same gearing and ratios of the five speed as is, except the sixth gear would be for cruising at 60mph and up. (so you could use it at 55mph but only on level . Any hill and a downshift at 55 would be way better.
Anyone who uses a manual should be happy with this. (That is if it pisses you off then a automatic is for you...)

I am perfectly happy with the five speed, and only wnt one more top overdrive gear for high speed cruising .

Personally I would gear the whole thing a little higher, so first is not so low.
I KNOW it is a tradeoff on start off a steep hill...
The euro 6MT is geared almost exactly the same as the US 5MT (1-5), but with an overdrive 6th. For people that have 65-70mph speed limits the 6MT would help a lot on the highway and still accelerate just as fast as the 5MT.

Posted via FF Mobile
 

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The euro 6MT is geared almost exactly the same as the US 5MT (1-5), but with an overdrive 6th. For people that have 65-70mph speed limits the 6MT would help a lot on the highway and still accelerate just as fast as the 5MT.

Posted via FF Mobile
^ +1 to this. Look at VW Golf 6MT or Wagon or Jetta. None of these cars are > 200 HP but both do perform excelent when needed.
 

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^ +1 to this. Look at VW Golf 6MT or Wagon or Jetta. None of these cars are > 200 HP but both do perform excelent when needed.
And so the fact that we only get a 5MT option is pretty crappy, because American highway speeds (atleast here in FL) are almost exclusively 70mph in lesser populated areas. I-95 and the Turnpike are the ones I frequent most, both are 70mph, which is where my car loses all of it's mileage efficiency, even with the Powershift.

Even some parts of US1 get up to 60-65mph. It would be great for the MT equipped cars to be 6 instead of 5spd.
 

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Most 6pd cars that I have driven are not really an overdrive set up but more of a close ratio kind of thing. So yes our 5spd trans does rev a little higher at higway speeds than the focus 6spd auto trans but I dont feel we would benefit that much with another gear.
 

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In any case I doubt that most people (except for teenage boys) have an obsession with 0-60 times, especially in an economy car.
 

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Generally speaking, a 5 speed and 6 speed transmission turn the same RPMs at highway speeds -- the extra gear on a 6 speed is usually a second overdrive (5th) or a stump-puller (1st and 2nd sharing acceleration over a normal 5sp's 1st)

For example, my Legacy GT is:
1 3.454
2 1.947
3 1.296
4 0.972
5 0.782
6 0.666
final 4.111

and the Focus 5sp is:
1st 3.67
2nd 2.14
3rd 1.45
4th 1.03
5th 0.81
Reverse 3.73
Final drive 3.82

Both cars have similar end results with 6th gear -- they're both "torque starved" so the 6th in the LGT is blended in around 2nd gear. There are other cars like the Viper or Corvette that have enough torque for an ultra-long 6th for pure cruising, though.

All in all, more speeds doesn't necessarily mean better. Is a 6th helpful? Sure, but it's generally for performance and not highway fuel efficiency.
 

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I find it helpful, in comparing various vehicles with manual transmissions, to "rationalize" all of the cars to a 1:1 fourth gear. That is to say, I take the gear ratio in first, and divide by the gear ratio in fourth; I take the gear ratio in 2nd, and divide by the gear ratio in fourth... etc... Of course, 4th gear ratio then becomes 1:1...etc.

Therefore, when I do this for the MTX-75 'box in the Focus, I get:
1st... 3.56
2nd... 2.08
3rd... 1.42
4th... 1.00
5th... 0.79
When I do this, I find that the effectively the spacing between 3rd gear and 4th gear in the Focus is very wide ratio.

I compare the 1.42:1 in the Focus, to the 1.34:1 in the new 2012 SkyActiv Mazda 3. Though the Mazda, with its 6 speed, has a gigantic drop between 4th and 5th (i.e. 1.00:1, to 0.73:1), the Mazda has a 'real sporty, close-ratio arrangement between 3rd and 4th.

This makes 3rd and 4th very useful for hilly, highway country. The Focus, not so much, as you have to rev the s**t out of it in 3rd, and then it bogs in 4th.

Why do I do the "divide by 4th gear ratio" trick? 'Cause of old many cars, in 4th gear had "direct" drive, i.e. 1:1 ...

If you do not do this equalization thing, you cannot compare, between cars easily.

Obvviously the final drive ratio makes a difference, between cars, but in reality it is the between-gear spread that affects the sportiness.

Having said this, a close-ratio car gets decidedly lousier gas mileage. That's why you see some ultra wide-ratio 6MT's out there. The Cruze Eco is terribly so, in this regard.

I suspect that the ST Focus will not cave to the Fuel Economy pressures, like the garden variety Focus will. So the 6MT in the ST MAY have a CR box. But don't go wishing for a 6MT in the garden variety Focus, 'cause almost for sure it'll be obscenely WIDE!
 

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Why wouldn't Ford put a 6MT in there Flagship small car you might ask.
All the other makes have 6MT, or an option for it.

The reason in sheer brilliance by Ford!

Cliff Note:(Short story is the performance. 6MT and 6AT on econocars seem to kill performance but boost MPGs. The 5MT offers the best balance for a driver looking for good MPGs but still have a zippy car (plus a tall 6th would lug to much at 55mph requiring downshifting often)).

Take a look at 0-60 times (by C/D)
SE Sport HB 5MT 7.3
SEL 6PS 8.2

A few reasons why the 5MT should be slower than the 6spd powershit (*and a 6MT).
Shorter gearing should lead to faster acceleration. *
Time to shift a manual 500ms - 1s (average)
Time it takes a DCG to shift 8ms-250ms

Accelerating with the 5MT
1st gear shift at 6500rpm(35mph) takes 500ms to shift to second rev up to 6500rpm(60mph). 7.3s with possibly a .5s loss because of driver.


Lets say the 6 speed Powershift takes 150ms between shifts
It revs to 6500rpm(32mph) in first gear at and revs to ~6300rpm(~50mph) in second gear and 3rd from 4100rpm(50mph) to 4900rpm(60mph).
that's 0-60 in 8.2s with a loss of .300s because of transmission.

now with the same gearing as the powershift in a 6MT would take 8.9s to get to 60. (i would think 8.5-8.7s)

A look at other cars with 6MT
0-60 2011 Mazda3 2.5 (7.6s)
0-60 2011 Cruze 1.4l turbo (9s)

And the big one, Euro spec focus with 1.6l ecoboost (180hp / 177 lb/ft 199 overboost) and 6MT 0-60 in 7.7s!!! 160/147 beats out 180/177 because of 5MT!

Ford knows us americans like performance so instead of offering Three 6 speed transmission that all offer the same MPGs. The manual would have no redeeming factors other than being a manual.
If you want better MPGs you will fork out an extra ~$1000 for an auto.
If you want performance you can stick to 5MT but suffer slightly at the pump.

I also feel
<200hp 5MT (less lugging on thruway)
>200hp 6MT (make better use of power)
Pretty sure your missing the politics and economics of the situation. Someone had a good break down of market for the 2012 Focus(Not sure where it is), I.e what there forecast of what cars they would sell. Anyways the manual market is any extremely small percentage of the automobile population about 5%. They are not going to put a lot of money into a manual transmission vehicle considering they probably won't sell as many as an automatic. The probably put most there money into the DCT that most of the competition doesn't have.

I also believe the 2012 Focus was rushed into production to compete with other compact cars. If they wanted to a 6 speed manual they probably didn't have the time to design, develop and test one. I am sure in the coming years a six speed getrag transmission will be available. You also have to remember MTX-75 has been around since 1995 and in the first generation focus. It has proven its worthiness throughout the years. Though some performance maybe a factor but I highly doubt those were any major determining factors if any.
 

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I also believe the 2012 Focus was rushed into production to compete with other compact cars. If they wanted to a 6 speed manual they probably didn't have the time to design, develop and test one. I am sure in the coming years a six speed getrag transmission will be available. You also have to remember MTX-75 has been around since 1995 and in the first generation focus. It has proven its worthiness throughout the years. Though some performance maybe a factor but I highly doubt those were any major determining factors if any.
Except Ford DOES have a 6MT for the 3rd gen, they just don't offer it in the US versions. The 6MT has almost identical 1-5 ratios as the 5MT, but an overdrive 6th gear. The performance difference between the two should be virtually unoticable, but the highway fuel economy of the 6MT would probably be substantially better.

Posted via FF Mobile
 

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The MTX-75 (5 MT) Gearbox has been mated to Duratec L4 (MZR) engines for a long time.
It's proven value, IT Fits, It works.
I actually find that the ratio in 5th to be a bit tall for my liking.
I'm getting 3000 RPM = 120 Km/HR I would prefer 3200RPM = 120 Km/HR.
 

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In some jurisdictions, the 4th and 5th gear ratios are different from the North American spec MTX-75's values. I'm not sure what gear ratio you have in South Africa. The CR gears for the MTX-75 that I speak of would be nice from a Sporting perspective, but may increase complaints of some, re the somewhat higher rpm's at highway speeds. In "ROW" (rest of world) areas (and in particular, in Europe) it seems that folks are not so fussed 'bout engines going a decent tick-over at highway speeds. In North America, folks seem to want 'real low rpm's. Trouble is, with a small engine, heavy car -- tall gearing makes for really lackadaisical upper gear highway performance!
 
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