[wideguy]

I've searched here, I've searched the internet, and I've talked to Crane, Crower and FSWerks (about Cosworth cams).

All I'm looking for is before and after dyno charts for Stage 1 cams in a 2007 Focus Duratec 2.0L engine, because I'm thinking of installing them in mine.

Crane told me they don't have any dyno charts, but I can expect 10-15% whp increase. FSWerks told me the same thing about the Cosworth Stage 1 cams, and Crower never replied at all....

I'm not looking for peak hp increase alone, I sport drive in the mountains and foothills of NC, VA and TN, but I mostly use my car as an everyday driver, and it goes on highway trips too. I don't want it any noisier than it is, and don't much believe the cai claims, which seem to be just peak whp claims, without any dyno runs to back them up, just like the cam claims.

What I want to see is how stage 1 cams affect the torque curve, compared to stock. It seems to be too much to ask.
Please, don't give me advice about cai and exhaust systems, thanks in advance.

 

[felixthecat]

I'm running Crane's 224-0010 cams in my 23 which really make a overall difference in usable torque. I went w/ the cranes over the crowers because I like the narrow lsa 110 vs 114. Even thou the crane has a shorter duration at .050 vs the crowers, crane makes up for it w/ a narrower lsa. The crower's & crane's are dual pattern cams vs the cossie's & obx copy cat which are a single pattern cams. Looking at the spec's of the oem cams & the aftermarket is like boobies= 34c's vs 32a's they do make a difference. What I notice is a lot more usable torque.btw the stock oem filter is crap= you try breathing thru that.

 

[1turbofocus]

I've searched here, I've searched the internet, and I've talked to Crane, Crower and FSWerks (about Cosworth cams).

All I'm looking for is before and after dyno charts for Stage 1 cams in a 2007 Focus Duratec 2.0L engine, because I'm thinking of installing them in mine.

Crane told me they don't have any dyno charts, but I can expect 10-15% whp increase. FSWerks told me the same thing about the Cosworth Stage 1 cams, and Crower never replied at all....

I'm not looking for peak hp increase alone, I sport drive in the mountains and foothills of NC, VA and TN, but I mostly use my car as an everyday driver, and it goes on highway trips too. I don't want it any noisier than it is, and don't much believe the cai claims, which seem to be just peak whp claims, without any dyno runs to back them up, just like the cam claims.

What I want to see is how stage 1 cams affect the torque curve, compared to stock. It seems to be too much to ask.
Please, don't give me advice about cai and exhaust systems, thanks in advance.

I know you asked not to but I cannot help my self , cams alone wont do a lot , you need other things to make the cams do there job to there potential , adding parts in some cases does add performance , adding a combination of the right parts always gains you good performance

In my opinion you need a better intake and exh to see the gains your wanting to see , you can do Exh thats quiet and most CAI do help you will also need a tune to bring it all together and to keep the engine safe

I have a in house dynojet and I am in NC , barrow a CAI and I will dyno both for you on your Focus got 60.00 so you can see

Tom

 

[wideguy]

I'm running Crane's 224-0010 cams in my 23 which really make a overall difference in usable torque. I went w/ the cranes over the crowers because I like the narrow lsa 110 vs 114. Even thou the crane has a shorter duration at .050 vs the crowers, crane makes up for it w/ a narrower lsa. The crower's & crane's are dual pattern cams vs the cossie's & obx copy cat which are a single pattern cams. Looking at the spec's of the oem cams & the aftermarket is like boobies= 34c's vs 32a's they do make a difference. What I notice is a lot more usable torque.btw the stock oem filter is crap= you try breathing thru that.

Thanks for the reply, those are the Cranes I had in mind. My engine pulls strongly to 6000 rpm, and I don't run it above that unless I make a mistake, so, I'm OK with the stock filter. If, as advertised, I get more torque at low end and mid-range, that's just what I want, though I'd still like to see a dyno chart...

 

[wideguy]

I know you asked not to but I cannot help my self , cams alone wont do a lot , you need other things to make the cams do there job to there potential , adding parts in some cases does add performance , adding a combination of the right parts always gains you good performance

In my opinion you need a better intake and exh to see the gains your wanting to see , you can do Exh thats quiet and most CAI do help you will also need a tune to bring it all together and to keep the engine safe

I have a in house dynojet and I am in NC , barrow a CAI and I will dyno both for you on your Focus got 60.00 so you can see

Tom

Thanks Tom, but I'd like to see just exactly what the cams do, and it might be exactly what I want, without further mods. There are no track days in my future, I just need a little more oomph on some of the tight hairpins running up to the Blue Ridge. (Or a 6 speed, but that isn't going to happen!)
Can you post before and after dyno charts of stock v, cai? Those seem to be rare as hens teeth too.

What do the cams do that require a re-tune? You're about 2 hours from me, or I would give you my dyno business.

 

[1turbofocus]

You ATX or 5 speed ? How much gain are you looking for ?

Tom

 

[wideguy]

5 speed. Right now, I'm looking for what I can get with stage 1 cams.

 

[1turbofocus]

So if STG 1 cams gave you 5 HP you would be happy ?

Tom

 

[wideguy]

So if STG 1 cams gave you 5 HP you would be happy ?

Tom

Everybody's telling me I'll gain around 10%. That would be around 12 hp, but, as I said, I'm more interested in torque and where I gain it. Of course a 10% gain in torque would also be about 12 ft/lbs., and if it's nicely distributed, I'd probably be happy with that. I'd have to test it in the mountains to know for sure. Felix noticed "a lot more usable torque".

Are you saying that stage 1 cams are only good for a 4% performance boost, and that Crane and FSWerks are, umm, exaggerating?

I guess you don't have any dyno charts to share?

 

[1turbofocus]

I dont think anyone will have a dyno of just cams , any cams , If you did find dynos of a Focus with your cams I can almost guarantee you that that Focus would also have other mods

Its my opinion that if you did gain 12HP from a dyno before and after just adding the cams there would need to be other supporting mods already on the Focus

Tom

 

[wideguy]

I dont think anyone will have a dyno of just cams , any cams , If you did find dynos of a Focus with your cams I can almost guarantee you that that Focus would also have other mods

Its my advice that if you did gain 12HP from a dyno before and after just adding the cams there would need to be other supporting mods already on the Focus

Tom

So your advice as a performance tuner is to slap a bunch of mods on an engine all at once and see what happens? Hoping for the best while spending lots of money usually isn't a good idea.

Your second statement doesn't even make any sense. If I get 12 hp just from the cams, that's what I'll get, just from the cams. Adding other mods later, if it doesn't get me more hp and torque, would be a waste of time and money.

If I want more peak hp, I'll just rev the engine above the 6000 rpm I've been using. It will be totally free. It's already there.

 

[1turbofocus]

I dont see where thats what I said ,
I never said anything about slapping a bunch of parts on an engine and hoping for the best ,
I never said anything about spending a bunch of money ,
your engine stopped making TQ WAY before 6000 ,
you wont make 12 HP from just cams

I was trying to help and give advice from some one that has built tons of NA and Boosted Foci

Good Luck!

Tom

 

[sailor]

I think the point is that cams - even stage 1's - are seldom a "first" mod. done.

So by the time they're added, the additional power is also a result of their taking advantage of other changes that have the POTENTIAL for better breathing - currently limited by the cams present.

It's a synergistic effect - better breathing on the intake side needs to be matched by better on the exh. side - and with that in place a change in cams can give it's most improvement, less if the prev. changes were limited (such as not doing a header).

Prev. changes may have had small effects by themselves, but they can set the stage for a larger improvement once the cams let the engine breath better. Cams by themselves can turn out to be limited by intake & exh. restrictions, resulting in less improvement than anticipated.

Tuning comes into the equation whenever an appreciable change in actual breathing (to make more power) takes place. The system can "fine tune" it's response through reacting to the O2 readings, but it starts off & spends some of it's time (particularly start up & WOT) at pre-mapped settings so it's better to change the map for the new "std." breathing of the system. This takes full advantage of the changes & avoids poor running & any possibility of damage by too much time spent running 'lean" because of added air without fuel to match. The "fine tuning" that takes place is limited in the effect allowed, so it's better to start with a "map" centered in it's adjustment "window" for the current configuration so any fine tuning can take place from there.

Small mods "get away" without 'tuning" by taking advantage of leeway built into the system along with the built in adjustments. As long as not too many are done, and the engine spends little time pushed hard, it can survive - leading to a misconception that "tuning" isn't needed short of extreme modification. Hopefully poor operation or a CEL rears it's head before the engine sees more mods & hard running than it can handle.

One potential problem is that WOT won't yield a CEL for too lean, and the engine will put out great power, right up to the time when it gives up because of running too hot. An extreme example I saw many times with Snowmobiles was when they were jetted for best running in the 10-30* range, then taken to the Mountains where temps. were often below zero. They'd come in broken with the comment that "it was running GREAT, then it just quit". Hated hearing that, because it normally meant a hole melted in a piston - on those requiring a new piston, maybe a jug if damaged enough, and a fresh crankshaft assy. for sure due to the crud getting through all the bearings. Four Strokes usually have a different set of problems when running too hot, but it's hardly less of an issue.

Usual progression for our cars adds intake & "Cat back" exh. first, and once header or cams are done you're at the point where a "tune" is recommended. Do all of them & it becomes a requirement IMHO. The only member I can think of who doesn't run his duratec with one while using most of that list also doesn't run it hard daily - he makes up for the lack by running a "wet shot" nitrous system at the track to add extra fuel (drag racing only).

Long commentary to cover some of the choices & their effects.

 

[wideguy]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Sailor,
I have experience modifying engines and building performance engines going back quite a few years, and some professional technical training to boot, plus gearhead friends from as early as the late 1960's, so I'm quite aware of what most people do to their engines, and the common order of modifications, which in my opinion, usually makes no sense at all.
I thought about what I wanted to accomplish with my Focus for the purposes I intend to keep using it for (it's not track days and there is very little WOT operation involved). I'm pretty sure Stage 1 cams won't make the engine flow beyond the range of the MAF sensor. I'm also pretty sure the cams alone will make noticeably more low end and mid-range torque, which is what the manufacturers claim and what I'm looking for.

All I wanted/want is to see some actual dyno charts of what the cams do.
I've been riding motorcycles since 1971 and have modified/built some engines along the way, and it's quite common for people selling aftermarket motorcycle cams to provide dyno charts that show just what their cams will do, alone and also with other mods. I just find it sad that Crane, Crower and Cosworth all sell cams for my Focus, all of them claim 10-15% power increases for their Stage 1 cams, but none of them will provide the dyno charts they certainly must have- unless they just deleted them after the cams were developed, which seems unlikely.

 

[wideguy]

I dont see where thats what I said ,
I never said anything about slapping a bunch of parts on an engine and hoping for the best ,
I never said anything about spending a bunch of money ,
your engine stopped making TQ WAY before 6000 ,
you wont make 12 HP from just cams

I was trying to help and give advice from some one that has built tons of NA and Boosted Foci

Good Luck!

Tom

Sorry if I misunderstood, you confused me a little.

Cams + cai + cat back exhaust + dyno tune/remap = significant amounts of money. Maybe not tons... but I'd call it a bunch from my perspective.

Yes, I know where stock peak torque is, and also what it is at 6000 rpm, roughly anyway, I've not dyno'd my specific car.
Dyno a 2.0 L Focus Duratec with just cams and show me the chart, then we'll know how much additional torque I'll get from them.

How much do you see from just a cai? How much from just a cat back exhaust? How much from those two combined? How much from both with Stage 1 cams?
I assume you're basing your "won't get 12 hp" claim on this sort of experience, since you've never actually dyno'd a car with just the cams? But it is the low end of what the cam manufacturers claim.

 

[sailor]

Sorry I got a little verbose, sounds like we have had some similar experiences (motorcycle) and seen the same ads there in years gone by.

Funny thing is that I've considered the same mod., for purposes of a bit more power that won't "show" on opening the hood when emissions checked.

Hangin' out here, I've noticed that with more dyno time available there's been a corresponding reduction in dyno claims for car parts - with the variability of results few want to put up numbers that may be disputed.

G/L finding some useful info., most I've seen posted don't address your question (due to multiple mods).

 

[rambleon84]

G/L finding some useful info., most I've seen posted don't address your question (due to multiple mods).

I agree, its going to be hard to find an example. Most that do cams are doing it as a last mod... already having done intake, exhaust and header; their cars will be breathing better and they are looking for the final N/A mod.

 

[wideguy]

Sorry I got a little verbose, sounds like we have had some similar experiences (motorcycle) and seen the same ads there in years gone by.

Funny thing is that I've considered the same mod., for purposes of a bit more power that won't "show" on opening the hood when emissions checked.

Hangin' out here, I've noticed that with more dyno time available there's been a corresponding reduction in dyno claims for car parts - with the variability of results few want to put up numbers that may be disputed.

G/L finding some useful info., most I've seen posted don't address your question (due to multiple mods).

Thanks, feedback like yours is almost as good as what I'm looking for. A lot of my reluctance to go with cai and/or an exhaust system has to do with noise. My Focus is already fairly noisy on the highway and I don't want to make it worse.
If I do put some cams in, I'll do before and after dyno runs, on the same dyno, corrected to standard conditions.

 

[wideguy]

I agree, its going to be hard to find an example. Most that do cams are doing it as a last mod... already having done intake, exhaust and header; their cars will be breathing better and they are looking for the final N/A mod.

I know it, I knew it when I posted this thread, since I'd already looked pretty intensively.
I was just hoping somebody had done it who hadn't posted the results anywhere, and they would step up and say "Hey, I did the same thing, here's how it worked..."

As for "final mods", I've thought about oversized 11:1 pistons too. I think I'd be pleased with that, especially with the cams... but I probably won't do that on account of being lazy in my old age, plus that would convince me I "needed" to go with cai and exhaust system, and wear ear plugs!
I could get a salvage yard engine and blueprint it while I bored it for new pistons.... I might even set it for minimum squish, depending on what it is now and what the combustion chambers look like... Nope, like I said, too lazy. But if I had the crank lightened and balanced too.... I wonder if anybody has ever cc'd the stock combustion chambers? Modern engines are pretty darn good, likely a waste of time.

After a short time considering it, I'd just buy an ST.

 

[twiggss]

Wideguy, check over here. http://turborangerforums.com/index.php

There is some good info on the Duratec. also if you do ask a question you won't get cookie cutter (buy this, buy this, buy this answers)