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Good job @dyn085. This should be a good learning experience.

The little fights here were lols and you kept your cool with calm explanations. Its all a bit disappointing that we all aren't here to support each other.
It didnt have much to do about supporting each other , people were trying to support him and give him ideas that are MUCH easier and what to look for , Let me show you what I am talking about

Some one anyone give me 1 paragraph telling me what the last post dyno made means , what it will do and what the end result will be , I am guessing no one can that hasent posted in here already , he is making things much harder then they need to be and no one is going to understand what he is talking about

Dont get me wrong , the idea of posting it here is great , other then the ones that posted in here if no one understands it , does it help anyone ?

Tom
 

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That Guy
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Discussion Starter #62
It didnt have much to do about supporting each other , people were trying to support him and give him ideas that are MUCH easier and what to look for , Let me show you what I am talking about

Some one anyone give me 1 paragraph telling me what the last post dyno made means , what it will do and what the end result will be , I am guessing no one can that hasent posted in here already , he is making things much harder then they need to be and no one is going to understand what he is talking about

Dont get me wrong , the idea of posting it here is great , other then the ones that posted in here if no one understands it , does it help anyone ?

Tom
Try and understand the fact that these posts are mostly cut and paste posts from my other threads in the FiST/FoST communities. I share it here so that people can read it to either-

Kill Time
Learn Something
Ask Questions
Disagree
Discuss
Recommend Alternative Ideas

And so on. Literally, the only community freaking out and acting like this is some huge deal and arguing everything is this one. Ironically, this is the community that it is least-applicable to. And even though I lump everyone into the definition of 'community', it is very clearly only a very, very small portion of this general population.

Nobody owes you a paragraph or any other measurable amount of response. If they have questions they can ask, but most likely very few will because the majority don't own a ST. It doesn't make the thread any less valuable as the thread is simply for sharing. Maybe in the future another ST owner will decide to go with ATR and want to discuss it here further-who knows? Either way, that's not for you to decide or expect of others.

It's kind of difficult for people to fully understand anything that they can't directly relate to. I can walk you step-by-step through installing and adjusting flight controls in a helicopter, but you won't understand it because you can't relate. It won't make my information wrong, just confusing. Either way, I can create a thread about doing it if I choose to and people can decide to read it and/or post if they want.

So again, there's no point in you posting in here if your only concern is trying to put me down. You're not helping or even trying, and it's now a off-site joke that you seem to think you are. You've made exactly two posts (by my count, maybe three if I'm generous) that have been semi-close to helping, but every single other one has either been an attempt at putting me down, telling me that I need to use a dyno and also telling me that I don't, or completely wrong information that alludes to you not knowing tuning functions on the ST. Post whatever ridiculousness here you want, but don't be surprised when I respond.
 
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Shoot Guys, maybe only a few following it for interest but arguing about it ISN'T interesting.

I've only followed it a little as a dillettante - not reading all in detail or any of the supporting links for background.

Tom - without flipping back a page to look at it again in detail, IIRC the summary would be that he was playing in small increments with a spark table and ended up finding a separate OAR table would make compensating adjustments once his changes reached a certain level. Much more detail to it, but that was the gist I gathered. No need to comment on whether it helps anyone, like a "Build Thread" it's more for the poster and anyone who might be interested in reading.

Duane - the "ask questions, disagree, discuss,recommend alternatives" portion you mention is where it seems to fall apart. Almost all the posts in here are written in an "authoritative" tone, including yours, and the disagreements are more about the perceived internet "tone" than about substance.

As an outsider to it, I think ALL could watch their written "tone" a little closer to avoid offense, and not TAKING offense as easily is the counterpoint that might help even more.
 

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That Guy
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Discussion Starter #64
I try to avoid putting tone into my posts, but only people that literally know me will ever understand that. Like I've said, my main posts are literally cut/paste and posted identically across forums-but this is the only one where it's apparently viewed in a manner of being a challenge towards authority. I understand that people may be upset that my posts are written a certain way, but like I said-they are promoting good discussions elsewhere. It's very much a conversation that only makes sense to those that are tuning the ST with ATR.

I recognize that some of my posts are dry to the casual member, but I'm also e-tuning a Fusion and (once Cobb gets back with me) will be doing my FiST as well. I have friends that have asked specifically for me to outline procedures in as detailed of a manner as possible so that they may learn, so I am. My posts shouldn't be viewed in an 'authoritative' manner-they should be read more like textbooks. The only difference is that when people question the procedure it can actually be discussed and rectified on the spot if necessary.

And not textbooks as in 'this is the way' but as in the overall dryness and detail of their subject.

Anyways, my OAR hit -1 on the drive following that OAR post so I locked it in place and am now tuning with it in mind. I've also noticed and logged some interesting borderline clips as well, which I know some of my friends are going to be interested to see because they happen seemingly out of nowhere. My timing will be where I want it in another couple of runs and I'm thinking about breaking into the turbo controls...

In lighter (and more sobering) news, this is what it looks like when you hit standing water during a fourth-gear pull at nearly 5k rpm. I'm as safe as I can be given the situation, but it appeared very last minute and I was already committed.
 

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Old Phart
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Interesting "shape" to that curve when you loose traction!

A long time ago now, but I never fully realized how much traction is lost to the front wheels when hitting puddles until driving a FWD car & having the RPM jump under power.

(BTW - did my short comment match the "gist" of the prev. post on OAR?)
 

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That Guy
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Discussion Starter #66
Pretty close. OAR basically monitors the knock sensors to make more permanent timing adjustments. Basically, if the KS's are adding lots of timing due to the fuel being substantially better than the tune, the OAR will recognize it and move from zero towards -1. Conversely, if the fuel is worse than the tune and the KS's are removing a lot of timing, the OAR will move from zero towards 1. This is all relative, so if OAR was at -1 and you had started using fuel of a lower caliber then OAR would eventually trend towards zero and vice-versa.

The OAR number is a multiplier that is used against separate tables depending on which side of zero it is on. Cobb has taken it a step further by also applying it to their global 3d timing offset within their switchable maps. So long as the base map is suited to work with the worst fuel at OAR 1, this will allow the ability to run everything from 87 octane up to E85 or race fuel (depending on how you establish your 5 map slots) all on one single tune. There's obviously a lot more that goes into that than just the global timing, but everything put together will work that way.

Anyways, this is my current understanding of the system. Once I get through this tank of fuel I'm going to re-enable the system and fill up with 87 to see how everything reacts and take one or forty datalogs to compare. I might be wrong on exactly which correction is applied and/or exactly how it's done, but that's part of the trial-and-error process. I'm probably going to rescale the learning modifier to see how that affects everything as well.

Here is the short tech article from Cobb- https://cobb.app.box.com/ford-oar
 
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That'll make tuning a single item at a time more interesting (grin).

Starting with one of their "octane specific" tunes, you'd need to keep any timing adjustments to where it still automatically adjusts to -1 OAR to match the rest of the tune. Timing that is optimum at zero OAR wouldn't match the rest that's aimed at -1.

Sounds confusing in print, to put it another way the octane specific tune when used with matching fuel results in automatic adjustment to the -1 OAR setting. "Optimized" to work with full automatic adjustment to that end rather than at Zero.
 

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That Guy
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Discussion Starter #68
That'll make tuning a single item at a time more interesting (grin).

Starting with one of their "octane specific" tunes, you'd need to keep any timing adjustments to where it still automatically adjusts to -1 OAR to match the rest of the tune. Timing that is optimum at zero OAR wouldn't match the rest that's aimed at -1.

Sounds confusing in print, to put it another way the octane specific tune when used with matching fuel results in automatic adjustment to the -1 OAR setting. "Optimized" to work with full automatic adjustment to that end rather than at Zero.
That's actually where it got really interesting. Because I went from 93 to 87, I loaded up the 87 OTS tune. They don't have a stage 3 87 (who uses that crap with those mods?) so I had to load the stage 1 87. No problem, because that should be much softer than a stage 3 87.

Tons of negative correction. I tried to force OAR to make a change, and nothing was happening. The only map lower was the stock emulation, so I just limited the KS strategy on the 87 and tuned around it. Once I lowered the timing out of knock I limited boost and basically put it up as it's a last-resort sort of scenario.

Because there was no 89 octane tune, I started with a stage 3 91 that I knew would need some softening. Again, I couldn't force the OAR so I finally just started to drop timing manually. At one point I became frustrated that my changes didn't seem to be drawing the negative corrections in fast enough so I did a full two-degree drop of all of my borderline tables and on the next 5-min log OAR suddenly jumped to -1 (from 0) within a few short hills while on cruise. That was the scenario where I went from no negative corrections at 0 OAR to getting small negative corrections at -1 OAR.

I've put a request in with the FiST community to see how the learning modifier is set up on that platform because it's significantly faster. My FiST learns within a couple of normal accelerations whereas the FoST can take up to two weeks of normal driving without being forced. Realistically, forcing OAR isn't the best way to do it because you're intentionally staying within the parameters to make the change as opposed to moving through them into areas that you might actually knock.

Interestingly, while testing the system I ran 87 octane in my FiST on a 93 OTS tune and never saw a change until I really beat on the car-and even then the change was fleeting. The system definitely works, I just need the comparison to see why the FiST works faster. Oddly, the stage 3 map seems excessively soft on the FiST as I was still seeing plenty of positive correction in conditions that I shouldn't have.

Because I'm using the exact same fuel, between the cars' OTS tunes it basically means that either the FiST tune is soft, the FoST tune is aggressive, or their overall learning/application strategy is different.

Where it gets more complicated is how different tuners use (or don't use) the OAR. Stratified appears to be using it in the manner that I'm working, which is having one tune run multiple fuels as the OEM system does. Some tuners don't seem to care about the system at all while others are having their customers run around finding fuel to meet the -1 OAR (or worse, using 93 octane to run their 91 tunes). It's interesting to watch from the sidelines considering how much control there is to alter the system with ATR.
 

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That Guy
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Discussion Starter #70
I got a response for how the OAR learning strategy is applied to the FiST. I made changes to the FoST table to illustrate how it looks. It's pretty clear now why the learning is so drastically different between the cars-

FiST-

FoST-
 

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That Guy
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Ok, so I have my 'normal driving' timing set to basically where I want it for now. To test my theory on OAR, I've adjusted my learning table to look like this-


My KS max timing advance allowed is only 2 degrees, so I rescaled the table to reflect that. I still have retard set to -6, but I want maximum correction at -4 to hopefully keep the car from getting into that range as quickly as possible. I also lowered the threshold to .65 load (as opposed to .8) so that corrections should occur sooner. The way that I'm thinking is that this overall setup should allow for relatively rapid negative corrections and settle out relatively quickly without allowing it to advance too rapidly. For now, this is how I'm leaving my 93 tune before putting 87 (maybe 89 because 87 sucks) in it.

If I'm right, I'll see negative corrections relatively quickly and the OAR should pick it up faster and adjust in the positive direction. Depending on how much knock occurs for however much time, the timing should drop incrementally relatively quickly until the negative corrections dissipate. After the corrections dissipate, I shouldn't see and movement on the OAR in the negative direction until I'm seeing repetitive KS additions over 1 degree cumulative. That's my hypothesis, so I guess it's time to put some 87 in and find out.
 

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Just for fun, here's the Fusion OAR setup-
 

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And the Mustang OAR (looks kinda familiar)-
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Some FiST stuff, now that I have ATR for it as well.

Well, I've picked up about 9hp/9tq from timing based on the 93 stage 3 OTS with added fuel. It still wanted more timing but I ran out of gas and don't need it to be 'perfect'. I didn't get an actual baseline on the V201 map because I'm usually not logging accelerator pedal position, but this is a comparison from my first revision (added fuel) to last. What is most impressive to me is that I'm basically running MBT almost everywhere at 1 load and below so my fuel mileage has skyrocketed. Part of that is due to having a leaner cruise, but the car has been wanting timing in heaps and spades. I went ahead and filled up with 87 and will turn my OAR back on to force it back down to 1 before shutting it off, and then I'll figure out what makes it happy with that fuel so that I can math out a different OAR setup for my BL tables. Once that's done my 'everyday' maps will be good for what I need and I'll probably start with a stock map and work up from there.



FoST is still in the shop.
 
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Discussion Starter #76
My most recent posts:

The OAR is getting close to what I want.

In the shortest explanation, I am using an 8-degree separation between my low and high octanes. I raised all of the base borderline tables by 3 degrees, set the OAR BL Timing Comp multiplier to -4 degrees everywhere, then adjusted my OAR Modifier to be aggressive in reduction and slow to advance. This gives my movement in both directions that keeps me less-aggressive than the numbers I arrived at through my logging. My KS is still set to only allow 3 degrees of timing addition, so mathematically I still end up where the OEM maps would with higher octane, it just starts off higher to begin with and won't remove as much timing for lower octanes.

While closer, it definitely still needs tweaking. I still have 87 in and once I re-activated the system I knew it would move towards the negative but I assumed it would still stop moving somewhere on the positive side of the scale. Not so much, as I'm currently sitting around -.31. The main problem is that in low-load driving the car doesn't really care what octane is in it, so it keeps wanting to move timing towards MBT. So I've gone back into the OAR adjustment and raised the minimum load for learning to see how much of an effect that has on the OAR movement. I didn't really want to do that given my experience with the FoST's OAR learning, but I'll see how much of an impact it makes with the current fuel.

-----

So I figured I would do a quick write-up on my 'lessons learned' while making VE adjustments. It's not anything different than the tuning guide outlines, just some things that I wish I would have done to speed up the process. It's not 'necessary' from any of the logs I've seen, but anyone that considers doing their own tuning for a BT upgrade will definitely need to learn how to do it. It's been a relatively fun exercise, just ridiculously time-consuming.

After doing this twice now, the main thing that I wish I would have done was created 15 separate tunes based on each HDFX pair before I even started driving. I was out on the side of the road with my laptop plugging in all of the changes during the process and that led to the data-collection taking a little more than two hours each time. Take your base tune, enable the cam locking, punch in the associated pair cam angles that you need to log for each HDFX component, then save it with whatever helps you remember-I simply put the logged pair HDFX number at the end.

Once you've created the 15 separate tunes (16 if you enable the OP tables), set up your log list with whatever you want, but the applicable HDFX weighted percentage and LTFT/STFT at a minimum. Nothing different than what the tuning guide says, but this is something you have to adjust through every datalog and can't just 'save' to each tune. Do a run, return to your starting point, load up the next tune, and change your HDFX weighted percentage accordingly in the datalog. Repeat the process and don't forget to annotate the barometric pressure you've measured with the AP3.

The nice thing about logging directly to the laptop is that you can log all 15 pairs in the same session, but if you're logging to the AP3 you'll want to break it into two sessions because the AP3 can't hold more than ten logs from what I've seen. Once you've logged everything necessary you can now head back to the house and do the math in the air conditioning. Excel does the math for you, but it's ridiculously time-consuming so you'll want a comfortable chair.

On my computer I added a 'VE' file to each cars folders, and inside are 15 separate numbered folders to represent each pair. In those files I transfer the applicable HDFX weighted datalog(s) and keep a copy of the Cobb VE tuning workbook. On my desktop I keep a master copy of the VE workbook that is solely used for making changes to the HDFX References-but it's an extra step that most won't need/want. I open the datalog, highlight the areas that inform me of the changes necessary, open the master list from the desktop, make the appropriate changes, then I copy the changes from the master list and apply them to the tuning guide in its respective folder to view how it maps out.

Don't forget to get a datalog with all 15 weighted percentages logged simultaneously with your base tune as it will not only show you areas that need work but will also show you how far to take your pulls. I think you can also datalog the lower rpm areas by simply changing your idle rpm, but I haven't actually done that yet as it would be even more time-consuming...but I think it would work. Then you can do an after datalog for comparison.

Criticisms/suggestions welcome.
 
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You never know when youll give the right info to the right person, personally mamelukes for such a practical and plentiful thread.
 
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