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Rough Engine Idle in Neutral

215 Views 6 Replies 4 Participants Last post by  beretta96
Hello! Long time FF reader, first time poster. I need some troubleshooting help from you guys.

I have a 2005 Focus ZX3 2.0L Duratec manual 5-speed with about 130k miles. My dad bought it new and we did a decent amount of mods in 2007-2008 (listed at the bottom), I have owned and daily driven it for about 3 years now. My issue is that the the car runs rough at idle. Before you say it's an EVAP/vacuum issue, please continue reading, bc this is weird.

I think it's an issue with the ECM getting o2 sensor readings when I am in neutral aka not in gear.

Here's my troubleshooting and pertinent information:
The two codes I've had are P0171 and P2195. P0171 has been the predominant code, but the past few weeks have only been P2195.
I believe this issue has been noticeable to me for maybe 1-2 years now.
I had my clutch replaced within that 1-2 year timespan (not saying that is related).
For most of this time, I've thought it was likely an evap or fuel delivery issue. In the last 3 months I've cleaned my intake filter, replaced the fuel filter, fuel pump, MAF sensor and b1s1 o2 sensor.
I've propane tested the whole engine bay trying to find a leak and could not find any change in RPM besides just at the intake to make sure propane was actually coming out lol.
I begrudgingly assumed it must just be the PCV valve or hose as I've seen a lot of other MK1 owners have cracks in those.

So here's where my thoughts changed. One of the reasons I changed the o2 sensor was my OBD scanner showed that b1s1 o2 sensor was pegged solid at 0.0v when I was not moving and at idle. In turn, the STFT would MAX OUT at ~66% trying to add as much fuel as it can and my engine would not have a good time. So probably a big vacuum leak, but maybe the o2 sensor is bad. So I replaced the o2 sensor with a new one let the ECM relearn itself for 5 minutes and took it on a drive and same issue. I parked in the AutoZone parking lot disappointed watching my o2 sensor give 0.0v while not moving. Then I put it in 1st gear to turn the car off and BOOM the o2 sensor reading maxes out to .935V and the STFT starts bringing itself down to normal. I put the car back in neutral and o2 goes straight back to 0.0v and STFT starts going up again..

This is 100% repeatable. When I take the shifter out of gear, no relation to clutch pedal position, the o2 sensor goes to 0.0v. When I put the shifter into any gear, the o2 sensor starts reading accurately again and the fuel delivery goes back to normal and the engine runs great.

I tested this on my way home from work today by sitting at every stop light in 1st gear with the clutch down and I had zero issues and my o2 sensor reading and fuel trim readings were 100% normal.

So - what the heck is happening? The car is tuned with a 2008 era SCT tune that hasn't been changed since we tuned it back then. Can the tune go bad? I have the Steeda short throw shifter installed, again it was installed in the 2000s. And my clutch was replaced in the last year.

I know there is a reverse sensor in the shift tower that tells the reverse lights to come on. Does the car know what gear I'm in and if I'm in neutral? If so, it seems like it just doesn't read the o2 sensor data when it's in neutral.

Forgot to mention - the car is not going into open loop, it is still in closed loop when this is happening hense the STFT adjusting to crazy numbers when the o2 sensor reads 0.0v. When the car is warming up I have data logged it running in open loop and it runs just fine in neutral until it's warm and enters a closed loop.

I have pictures of my data stream, and I also downloaded LiveLink 6 to data log a drive using my og xcalibrator2 lol, so I have an excel sheet from that as well. I can post a few pictures shortly.

Modifications:
Steeda cold air instake
Magnaflow exhaust
Steeda short throw shifter
Focus Central style 67mm throttle body
SCT performance tune from 07'-08'
replaced thermostat, b1s1 o2 sensor, fuel filter, fuel pump, MAF sensor
Eibach Suspension
other non-related to this issues upgrades
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Maybe somebody retuned to separate neutral idle fuel map from in gear running fuel map?

The earlier zetecs will run lopsided like that as the idle only fuel map does not add as much fuel as off-idle and the idle will then miss with 0v because the fuel map at idle has hit its' limit past a certain point. Your O2 is fine.

Your codes ARE for vacuum leak of some sort, got worse when the 2195 began to show up. The usual PCV hose leak under intake.

The fact it has been tuned likely figures into your issue. Need to get with Tom here online (1turbofocus), he probably undestands how that could likely happen as he does lots of tuning.
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I would look at the pcv hose as well. 16 years is a long time for rubber in a hot engine compartment. Replace the iac and the intake gaskets, throttle body gasket which is a one time use. Should be considered prevention at this point. I can pull a duratec intake in about 35 minutes taking it easy. First time took me 3 hours. Lol. Do it.
Update - I drove all morning today the same way as yesterday, staying in 1st gear at stop lights and the check engine light went away on it's own for the first time in months. Idle was smooth and the car feels like it's running normally again when I'm at a stop. I think further confirmation that my vacuum is actually ok, but something with o2 reporting or just general data reporting to the ECM is wrong while I'm not in gear. Would not be surprised if it's tune related, that seems like my 1st option to investigate now. Thanks amc49 for the recommendation, I'll see if I can get a hold of him for ideas.
I would look at the pcv hose as well. 16 years is a long time for rubber in a hot engine compartment. Replace the iac and the intake gaskets, throttle body gasket which is a one time use. Should be considered prevention at this point. I can pull a duratec intake in about 35 minutes taking it easy. First time took me 3 hours. Lol. Do it.
Thanks for the reply. Here's the thing:

State 1 - Sitting in my driveway at idle, parking break on, clutch pedal pushed down, shifter in NEUTRAL position = o2 sensor pegged at 0.0 and STFT maxing out engine running rough.
State 2 - Sitting in my driveway at idle, parking break on, clutch pedal pushed down, shifter in 1st gear (or any other gear) = o2 sensor reporting perfectly and STFT balancing out to normal numbers.

I agree 18 year is a long time for the PCV hose and valve and I've been prepared to change them to resolve this issue, but I don't think I have a vacuum leak at this point due to the above, as well as propane testing the pcv hose extensively with no rpm changes to speak of. It will have to be done in the future, but the above scenario is 100% repeatable, just moving the shifter into a gear fixes the o2 and fuel trims instantly.

Also, my check engine light has gone away on it's own for the first time in months after staying in 1st gear at all stops today.
Maybe somebody retuned to separate neutral idle fuel map from in gear running fuel map?

The earlier zetecs will run lopsided like that as the idle only fuel map does not add as much fuel as off-idle and the idle will then miss with 0v because the fuel map at idle has hit its' limit past a certain point. Your O2 is fine.

Your codes ARE for vacuum leak of some sort, got worse when the 2195 began to show up. The usual PCV hose leak under intake.

The fact it has been tuned likely figures into your issue. Need to get with Tom here online (1turbofocus), he probably undestands how that could likely happen as he does lots of tuning.
Thanks for the reply. See my follow ups below(above?), I agree that this is likely a tune issue or whatever is reporting in gear vs out of gear to my ECM is acting up and maybe not fully reporting the neutral/out of gear position. But I'm starting my efforts on the tune for now. I appreciate the referral, I'll see if I can figure out how to get in touch with 1turbofocus to pick his brain. If I still have my original tune saved on my Xcalibrator2 I might just revert to factory tune and re-tune it with the original 08' one we used. TBD.
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@HSskillet Any luck making progress with your troubleshooting?
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