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Discussion Starter #1
Doing the rear wheel bearings on my SVT, figured i would post in the MK1 since its the same parts.

Pressed in the new wheel bearings and put everything back together and realized there's something missing. I do not have the "water seal carrier", any recommendations on where to get them or how to get them? Im thinking i can order cheapy units off Ebay and then sealing the Water seal carrier from them and putting them on my units with the fresh bearings.

When i pulled everything apart i realized it never had them in the first place and both rear bearings were so stiff i needed a prybar to turn the wheels, so water must have been getting in there, i had to use the slide hammer to pull it apart.

Lastly, that little wheel seal that goes on the rear spindle, any preference on which way it should be facing? the little flap pointing inwards or outwards?


Thanks!
 

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The bearings are sealed. Yes they do go in a certain way. Not put in properly and abs will not operate correctly.
 

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Not sure why Pasta did that, his reply did not answer your questions, but did answer questions that you did not ask. But was a good reminder to NOT install the bearings upside down, when the car is ABS equipped.

...I do not have the "water seal carrier", any recommendations on where to get them or how to get them?

...Lastly, that little wheel seal that goes on the rear spindle, any preference on which way it should be facing? the little flap pointing inwards or outwards?
I can't help, I do not have the answers your looking for.

My only experience with the water seal carrier was with drum brakes, not with the rotor setup you have on the back.

Posting here to BUMP your questions. Good luck.

BTW the "that little wheel seal that goes on the rear spindle" is likely the sister-part, the mating-part, to the water seal carrier, right? Until someone comes along that knows the exact answer, I might put these two parts together off-the-car, to see if inwards or outwards makes more sense.
 

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I think pasta was thinking of the wrong end, correct answer for the front.

AFAIK the rear disc setup works like the rear drum one, and that 'seal carrier' on the hub covering the bearing is both the ABS reluctor and water seal mating piece.

It's got a flat section that fits over the rubber lip seal on the spindle, so it would be pressing the spindle rubber lip IN when it gets installed. Keeps water/dust out, so the lip is pointed toward the dirty side - inwards away from the hub.

ABS version only on the hub, there's also a plain steel type for drum brakes without ABS.
 

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I think pasta was thinking of the wrong end, correct answer for the front....
What? I'm not here to bust on you or Pasta, but "correct for the front"? Pasta was off on another planet, did not answer OP questions at all, -none of the OP questions were answered by Pasta. How is the Pasta reply "correct answer for the front"?

I'm gunna take a pill, then do dishes, then clean some of the mess crap out of the garage to cap-off my Saturday night... Gotta get my 13 y/o son off of the PS4 right now to help this party start & end. Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks, i actually figured it out and i was going to get around to posting some pics. In the end, this morning i got up and ran over to the local Pick and Pull, they have quite a few focus' mk1's and they don't give a hoot about little hardware so they basically let you take it for free. They also didn't know what this water seal carrier even was, so that helped me to get it for next to nothing.

The drums and discs both use the same bearings, abs tone rings, wheel seal on the spindle and the water seal carrier.

I took apart a set of drums and popped the abs tone rings off and got the water seals, in Hindsight i should have just ordered some Motorcraft brand wheel bearings off ebay, but im glad this worked out, if there was more of a demand for these water seals i could have walked out of there with 30+ of those things at 25 cents a piece. But as long as you disassemble correctly i can't imagine this being a huge wear item, or in my case they just weren't on the car at all when i did the bearings, probably why the bearings were seized.

Now for the seal on the spindle, the seal has a flap that needs to be facing towards the inside of the wheel well or the outside of the wheel well, it NEEDS to be pointing to the inside. If you install the little seal wrong and the flap is pointing to the outside of the car, when you install the hub and bearing, the water seal will tear the delicate rubber seal. I did a lot of searching on this forum before posting and couldn't believe this had never been covered before, its very easy to get it wrong and screw up this $20 little seal, i imagine it happens a lot and once everything is reassembled no one ever realizes the install was done wrong until the bearings fail 10k miles later...
 
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Pasta's a Bud, but sometimes he doesn't take time to read enough or can get things backwards. So despite him actually doing this, I was recognizing his description as matching what he got done twice at the front end when someone pressed the bearings backwards for him.


For the back, I gotta ask if the tone rings/water seals are one item for these.

Can't remember a good picture right now, clear one of the water seal cap in my head but not so clear on the tone ring. One I saw pictured could actually fit over the water seal - odd way to do it.
 

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...The drums and discs both use the same bearings, abs tone rings, wheel seal on the spindle and the water seal carrier.

....for the seal on the spindle, the seal has a flap that needs to be facing towards the inside of the wheel well or the outside of the wheel well, it NEEDS to be pointing to the inside. If you install the little seal wrong and the flap is pointing to the outside of the car, when you install the hub and bearing, the water seal will tear the delicate rubber seal....
This thread was very helpful to me, helped me remember a few things, also learned a few things.

Like you said, all of these parts are the same if drum or rotor is on the back of the car. The big difference is when we switch to the front of the car. The front does not have a removable ABS tone ring & it is only the front where we must ensure to install the ABS bearing right-side-up. IIRC the rear bearing also has a right-side-up, but is not associated to ABS operation.

As for the seal on the spindle... thanks for the tips. I do not recall this being discussed either. Hopefully I will remember your comments next time I dig into one of these spindles and will inspect the orientation of the tab (if equipped).

...For the back, I gotta ask if the tone rings/water seals are one item for these.
Separate items. 3 items total. 1 tone ring. 1 water seal carrier (snaps into the drum or snaps into the hub if rotor). 1 seal on the spindle.

I can't remember any special seal (or tabs/flaps) on the spindle, but DO remember a rubber seal/o-ring that sits on the base of the spindle. I think this particular seal that the OP is talking about "with flaps" is an additional item to the spindle o-rings on my car, and is just something I have not run into, and might not be installed on my car. Not sure.
 

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Thanks, that clears it up for me.

The hub parts (tone ring & water seal) I've often seen shown separately, after prev. owners have damaged/lost parts & done without them.

Definitely explains why the tone rings are often mentioned as a loose fit that needs to be adjusted, since they should be installed over the water seal.

Seal on the spindle gets varied descriptions, the important part to me is that it works to seal against the 'water seal' on hub or drum, and those parts can be replaced as a set with new ones when worn/damaged.

If it's not obvious, I'd say to grease up the rubber seal/seal lips like any other seal for longevity - some nice waterproof grease would do nicely.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I took some pics and finally had time to upload them just to give more detail of what we've been talking about in case someone needs pics.

Now that these cars are getting more rare, some of these parts are going to get harder and harder to find. I ordered everything through Napa and it was still a day or so to get them. I would recommend just ordering a Ford OEM hub and bearing assembly and swapping and just replacing the inner seal. Then you don't have to deal with the headache of finding a water seal carrier if its damaged or missing and less chance of screwing something up when reassembling.











 

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Are you SURE all those parts get used at once?, something there is screaming no to me all over the place.

I've been running for years with all THREE missing and zero issues, the bearings themselves have internal seals in them. Just like the fronts which have NONE of those extra seals.

If anything they are guarding more against semi-metallic brake dust from migrating into the bearing there not water so much.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yes I am positive, there may be a chance all of this is unnecessary but there was a reason they did it.

1. Call a Ford dealership on a parts breakdown, they will give you the exact list that I did
2. if you order the hubs and bearings preassembled all those parts with the exception to the inner wheel seal come with it.
3. I took apart two other Focus's at the yard on top of my own focus to find the parts assembled this way. (Besides mine being missing)
4. Before disassembly I made reference to this post and it helped a lot, just didn't give me enough detail on some things. He also has all of these parts. http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/brakes-suspension-body-chassis/119824-rear-wheel-bearing-replacement-how.html
 

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Great series of pictures essaycho348, -nice work!

Earlier in is this thread, I posted saying I was unsure about the spindle seal "flaps" that you mentioned (ref quote below). Thanks to your follow-up info and pictures, I now fully understand. Earlier I said, the "rubber seal/o-ring that sits on the base of the spindle"... it turns out that this seal on my spindle is the same seal "with flaps" that you talked about and pictured above. The big lesson for me was the use of the special installation tool. Once the new seal (with visible flaps) has been (smashed) installed with the special tool, the flaps essentially disappear and/or are very-very difficult to see. The flaps morph into a some-what solid seal, and in the end, it looks like a specially formed o-ring.

Any chance you have the part number of the spindle seal? I do not need the p/n, but would be helpful as a future reference.

Cheers!

btw I made an edit of this quote, -just now
...I can't remember any special seal (or tabs/flaps) on the spindle, but DO remember a rubber seal/o-ring that sits on the base of the spindle. I think this particular seal that the OP is talking about "with flaps" is an additional item to the spindle o-rings on my car, and is just something I have not run into, and might not be installed on my car. Not sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Any chance you have the part number of the spindle seal?

btw I made an edit of this quote, -just now
Yes, I try to source all of my parts from Napa, through our commercial prolink page at work I searched "wheel seal" and came up with the two parts, the tone ring on the hub side is classified as the outer wheel seal, the little seal on the spindle is called the inner wheel seal. Below is the info.

Also notice next to the part number, the napa website has it labeled as NOS, which MIGHT mean that this part is discontinued and they are slowly dwindling down on stock. looks like there is about 1000 units in stock nationwide through napa. NOS normally means New Old Stock, a term usually used for a discontinued part, but not always.

Inner Seal:
Part: *NOS*15666
Product Line: NAPA Oil Seals

Features & Benefits

Spring Loaded, w/ Auxiliary Dirt Lip, SKF Patented Bi-Directional Wave Seal, Positive Fluid Control, High Quality General Purpose Rubber, Temps From -40 Deg F To 250 Deg F

Application Information: 2003 Ford Focus
Comments: @173 lb. ft/ 235 [email protected]
Per Car Qty: 2

Outer wheel seal:
Part: *NOS*18849
Product Line: NAPA Oil Seals

Features & Benefits
Seal Caps, w/ ABS tone Ring Built In
Tech Tip: Importance of Proper Seal Selection
Tech Tip: Pinion Seal Installation
Tech Tip: Polyacrylate-Nitrate Seals
Tech Tip: Proper Seal Installation
Tech Tip: Seal Part Numbering System
Tech Tip: Wheel End Failure Lubrication


Attributes

UNSPSC: 31401610
Wheel Seal I.D.: 1.893"
Wheel Seal O.D.: 2.89"
Wheel Seal Width: .441"

Application Information: 2003 Ford Focus
Comments: @173 lb. ft/ 235 [email protected]
Per Car Qty: 2
 

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I could be entirely wrong of course.

BUT, when you install the 'wheels seals' over the 'water seal carriers' then you have negated the wheel seal lips as its ID cannot seal down like a normal lip seal does at all (at least on the design I looked at in blowup). When I look at those separately in other places they are clearly built as a double lip seal intended to seal all by itself. The true check would be a fitment to the axle stub by itself and if the OD is grasped by the seal by itself then not running it right with another doubled up inside of it.

As well, you would be turning a very thin lip of rubber between two other rubber surfaces, even so much as think of running dry of lube and that is one of the fastest ways to tear something up there. Rubber on rubber and both moving are a stupid way to do things if looking for longevity, they do even worse and rubber on rubber on more rubber. ????!!? And even more retarded, where while using just the wheel seal or the other two together has only one potential leak pathway, using all three makes TWO pathways now, if trying to go the extra mile to stop leaks then creating twice as much way for leaking to occur is engineer stupidity.

Such is life at Ford..............(sigh)

I can see the wheel seal used by itself as well as the other two parts used together, the inner most seals the double lips to the ID of the water seal carrier.

When I sold these in parts we did NOT sell all three at once, the customers did not want all of them, either the one or the two were in our parts breakdowns. When simply looking at parts in a catalog and both types used in one year you will get multiple callouts seeming to say to use all of them. Maybe what Ford was doing. I couldn't find anywhere where all 3 were called for in any looking I did last night looking at several parts sites.

Again, I may be wrong but if so another stupid thing for Ford to do, no need as the BEARING itself has 3 seals INSIDE ITSELF on each end. That's a total of six now, I'd call that pretty stupid overkill when they can't fix a single seal right on the DCT type trans...........more oddball corporate dichotomy there.

There's reasons for everything they do but often they are not for you, rather, to run costs for you up, it's good business. No FWD uses these outer seals pretty much at all and not needed even when using the exact same bearings.

FYI, I ran across an 'outer seal' that is none of those parts, ergo, a fourth part, while looking last night. It has no lips at all to grab a steel OD and may be the one that the either one of the other two parts go inside of.
 

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I know you can run without them amc, it's an extra dirt/water seal like Honda & others used to use on the back of ATV's to help make sealed bearings last longer.

Less confusing when you think of that 'water seal carrier' as actually a cheap way to make a stamped metal sealing surface in the hub, instead of polishing a section of the hub & using a larger rubber lip seal to match over the axle.

That polished section woulds likely be damaged anyways when installing a bearing, and this is a cheap replaceable part to help reuse the hub with a fresh seal surface.

The other 'seal' on the hub is only a tone ring - needed & useful for ABS only.



Always nice when you can replace both seal & mating surface, since the mating surface ALWAYS ends up grooved over time.
 

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Yes, I try to source all of my parts from Napa, through our commercial prolink page at work...
Your added info with part numbers above is very helpful. Thank you. The prolink Tech-Tips links are generic <but I only checked one> but helpful non the less.

Your help & custom made pictures here has been amazingly helpful! Thank you again.


... I couldn't find anywhere where all 3 were called for in any looking I did last night looking at several parts sites.
Big & good post amc, but I am not going to comment on each point you made. I read ur post fast, its' too late, maybe i'm too tired, too old... Thought I might just comment about only this "3 parts" thing you spoke of...

The 3 parts are only 2 parts. These 2 parts are the water seal carrier -and- the pressed-on seal on the spindle (pressed-on by using the special tool ID'ed by OP in pics above). Not sure what you meant by the "3rd part" (?) but other items are in play. -the tone ring? -the special tool needed to properly install the seal on the spindle?

BTW during my Focus adventures, I used some AutoZone Duralast brand drums with bearing. Some included a water seal carrier (WSC), others did not. Hit and miss back then. Guessing the newest versions will include a WSC. Not sure what is flying off the AZone shelf today. My current set-up is these same Duralast drums, with a WSC, but now have after-market and better bearings installed.


...The other 'seal' on the hub is only a tone ring - needed & useful for ABS only...
I agree. The OP added the words "wheel seal" to the ABS tone ring. OP did this based on (prolink) NAPA data that fed him/us this extra word/s. Would be helpful to all of us that we stick to a standard set of names for this item.

ABS tone ring should not include the word "wheel or seal". Let's just use the more standard, more typical name, ABS tone ring.

[thumb]

P.S - did the OP get that special install tool with the NAPA seal, seals? -was it a set of two seals that included the special tool? How much $$ was the seal and tool?

Cheers! <burp!>
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
I could be entirely wrong of course.

BUT, when you install the 'wheels seals' over the 'water seal carriers' then you have negated the wheel seal lips as its ID cannot seal down like a normal lip seal does at all (at least on the design I looked at in blowup). When I look at those separately in other places they are clearly built as a double lip seal intended to seal all by itself. The true check would be a fitment to the axle stub by itself and if the OD is grasped by the seal by itself then not running it right with another doubled up inside of it.

As well, you would be turning a very thin lip of rubber between two other rubber surfaces, even so much as think of running dry of lube and that is one of the fastest ways to tear something up there. Rubber on rubber and both moving are a stupid way to do things if looking for longevity, they do even worse and rubber on rubber on more rubber. ????!!? And even more retarded, where while using just the wheel seal or the other two together has only one potential leak pathway, using all three makes TWO pathways now, if trying to go the extra mile to stop leaks then creating twice as much way for leaking to occur is engineer stupidity.
The True seal would actually be the inner wheel seal. The two pieces that work together are the water seal carrier and then inner wheel seal. See if my drawing makes sense. when the hub is slipped onto the spindle, the inner wheel seal fits perfectly inside of the water seal carrier. Also The water seal carrier is installed very snugly into the hub and will not install without some decent pounding, this means that the outer wheel seal/abs tone ring doesn't do much except act as a dust cover on the hub.



That's The reason this whole thing turned into a red flag for me was when I was reassembling everything WITHOUT the water seal carriers, the inner and outer wheel seals actually do touch without the water seal carrier and they DO tear each other apart, which is why I bought two sets of these inner wheel seals. I destroyed the first set.

The inside of the water seal carrier in which the inner wheel seal rides on is polished very smooth and the inner wheel seal comes prepped with grease on it. I completely agree, it seems like an incredibly weird thing to have not lubricated rubber against steel but all the Focus' that I took apart at the junkyard had the inner wheel seal in very good shape and not torn up, so it must work.


Sidenote, I can't believe there has been this much discussion on a 18 year old platform...Its good, and I'm glad its getting figured out so the next guy doesn't do what I did but gosh im so surpised this hasn't been covered lol.
 
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Discussion Starter #20
P.S - did the OP get that special install tool with the NAPA seal, seals? -was it a set of two seals that included the special tool? How much $$ was the seal and tool?

Cheers! <burp!>
Yes, the little plastic install tool comes with the Napa seals, I saved all four that came with my sets so if anyone gets a inner wheel seal without the little tool I can mail you one of these I have extra. It was not a set, they come one seal and tool per box, so $40 in parts to do the car :/

Through our commercial account I paid $19.64 cough cough but you didn't hear that from me. List price is $39, I think anyone who walks in the store will pay around $28

As of right now Rockauto stocks them at $11-$14 and the little tool is pictured. Rockauto sells SKF, and that's all that Napa bearings and seals are just SKF repackaged.
 
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