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Ford totally forgot the primary rule of a product, it is to ease the life of the user not to make it harder for them to do a thing. Then they backed it up MUCH worse by claiming the driver had to learn to fit the car not the other way around. The person that came up with that policy needs to be fired as in a long time ago.

Corporate hubris of the highest order.
 

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When a Ford tech tells you that the vehicles are designed (programmed) to make the car launch "more comfortably" what do you think is going on? The car is riding the clutches.

I'm not here to talk down to people. Insinuating this is a true automatic transmission is idiotic though. It has shift forks, clutch packs, etc. It is a manual internally, okay?

You can ride your clutch in a manual for a while before you start to pay for it. I got into an argument recently with someone who kept telling me Ford wouldn't program it this way because of what it has cost them. Okay, but then *why* did Ford keep producing the vehicle?

This same transmission (6DCT250) is found in several Renault vehicles, and my research indicates that their version doesn't have shudder issues. I can't find a thing that indicates it's any different a trans. I'm next to positive the shudder is a result of bad programming. I don't think new clutch packs would fix the issue even temporarily otherwise.

Yes, I did happen to buy Tom's tune, and yes I'm still dealing with shudder unfortunately. However, I put 31,000 miles on my clutch packs prior. That's a LOT of slipping and shuddering. I wish to be shudder free. May not be possible. I'd like to see someone with fresh clutches and a tune tell me what's going on 30k miles later.

Now, is it possible that poor clutch material could result in shudder? You better believe it. I think you could blame a small portion of shudder on this.

People have asked: If it's this simple, why hasn't Ford changed it? Well go ask Ford. They market it as automatic. They program it to shift as close as possible to a true auto. They wanted it this way obviously, right, is that it?

Tom isn't a genius and this isn't a miracle. The computer replaces the driver. Something is wrong with the computer

Thanks for reading my essay!

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When a Ford tech tells you that the vehicles are designed (programmed) to make the car launch "more comfortably" what do you think is going on? The car is riding the clutches.

I'm not here to talk down to people. Insinuating this is a true automatic transmission is idiotic though. It has shift forks, clutch packs, etc. It is a manual internally, okay?

You can ride your clutch in a manual for a while before you start to pay for it. I got into an argument recently with someone who kept telling me Ford wouldn't program it this way because of what it has cost them. Okay, but then *why* did Ford keep producing the vehicle?

This same transmission (6DCT250) is found in several Renault vehicles, and my research indicates that their version doesn't have shudder issues. I can't find a thing that indicates it's any different a trans. I'm next to positive the shudder is a result of bad programming. I don't think new clutch packs would fix the issue even temporarily otherwise.

Yes, I did happen to buy Tom's tune, and yes I'm still dealing with shudder unfortunately. However, I put 31,000 miles on my clutch packs prior. That's a LOT of slipping and shuddering. I wish to be shudder free. May not be possible. I'd like to see someone with fresh clutches and a tune tell me what's going on 30k miles later.

Now, is it possible that poor clutch material could result in shudder? You better believe it. I think you could blame a small portion of shudder on this.

People have asked: If it's this simple, why hasn't Ford changed it? Well go ask Ford. They market it as automatic. They program it to shift as close as possible to a true auto. They wanted it this way obviously, right, is that it?

Tom isn't a genius and this isn't a miracle. The computer replaces the driver. Something is wrong with the computer

Thanks for reading my essay!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Completely agree that programming is 90% or more of the issue. I have driven manual trannys for 36 years. I have always gotten more than 150k miles out of a clutch, some of those miles driven by a previous owner when I bought used cars. I live in the SF Bay Area so keep in mind this means hills included. My point is that since the DCT is functionally a manual, the programming could be tweaked to improve clutch life to 100 - 150k. To over simplify, driving a manual considers the following: vehicle speed, RPM, current gear, throttle input, engine load and clutch position. Makes me wonder if the Ford team responsible for the programming strategy actually drive manual trannys on the daily. Heck, I think only 18% of Americans know how to operate a manual and that doesn’t confirm they are even good or experienced. Would love to talk to the Ford programming folks lol.
 

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Completely agree that programming is 90% or more of the issue. I have driven manual trannys for 36 years. I have always gotten more than 150k miles out of a clutch, some of those miles driven by a previous owner when I bought used cars. I live in the SF Bay Area so keep in mind this means hills included. My point is that since the DCT is functionally a manual, the programming could be tweaked to improve clutch life to 100 - 150k. To over simplify, driving a manual considers the following: vehicle speed, RPM, current gear, throttle input, engine load and clutch position. Makes me wonder if the Ford team responsible for the programming strategy actually drive manual trannys on the daily. Heck, I think only 18% of Americans know how to operate a manual and that doesn’t confirm they are even good or experienced. Would love to talk to the Ford programming folks lol.
I'm glad someone else sees it for what it is, largely.

I would suspect you should get a good amount of miles on this trans even with clutch shudder, but I'm not sure specifically how long the clutches would last. Someone who's slipped the clutch in their manual a lot might know. Lol

Not sure why they can't see why all that extra slipping is a problem. Truly mind boggling to try and wrap your head around. Some people have a hard time believing a tune would solve/help the issue. I get why, but clearly, there's an ethics/culture issue at Ford.

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Completely agree that programming is 90% or more of the issue. I have driven manual trannys for 36 years. I have always gotten more than 150k miles out of a clutch, some of those miles driven by a previous owner when I bought used cars. I live in the SF Bay Area so keep in mind this means hills included. My point is that since the DCT is functionally a manual, the programming could be tweaked to improve clutch life to 100 - 150k. To over simplify, driving a manual considers the following: vehicle speed, RPM, current gear, throttle input, engine load and clutch position. Makes me wonder if the Ford team responsible for the programming strategy actually drive manual trannys on the daily. Heck, I think only 18% of Americans know how to operate a manual and that doesn’t confirm they are even good or experienced. Would love to talk to the Ford programming folks lol.
I'm glad someone else sees it for what it is, largely.

I would suspect you should get a good amount of miles on this trans even with clutch shudder, but I'm not sure specifically how long the clutches would last. Someone who's slipped the clutch in their manual a lot might know. Lol

Not sure why they can't see why all that extra slipping is a problem. Truly mind boggling to try and wrap your head around. Some people have a hard time believing a tune would solve/help the issue. I get why, but clearly, there's an ethics/culture issue at Ford.

Edit: Damn double post. Lol
 

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Have a 2017 SEL sedan. With Sport shift, car has been most trouble free car ever owned. 42,000 mi. never been in for any service except normal service, and no recalls. Driven mostly in town for delivering, a lot of stop and go. The best thing to do. Drive the hell out of it, and I do.
 

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I'm not here to talk down to people. Insinuating this is a true automatic transmission is idiotic though. It has shift forks, clutch packs, etc. It is a manual internally, okay?
Then Ford's Focus sales brochures should have stated on page 1: "You can't drive this econobox grocery getter like every other non-manual trans car sold for many FN decades. You have to drive it a special way, or it will grenade."

Ford F'd up here. No way to spin it.
 

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Having driven more manual transmission cars than automatics, and having had terrible luck with about every automatic that I have owned, I would have much preferred a manual when I bought this thing.

Rather dismayed at the reality of the DCT, I thought about how/why I choose to clutch the way I do in a manual, and if I were telling a computer how to do it, what would I do. I came to the conclusion that it would be nearly impossible, unless the compyuter were also controlling the throttle, and viewing the drive ahead. A large part of how I choose to engage the clutch has to do with that I intend to do. I might still give the gas a little pressure to let the clutch out, even if I intend to go slow, just to get the clutch engaged sooner. If I do the same thing with the gas in the DCT, I'll end up crashing into the car in front of me in traffic. I can't really see how a good solution to program that would be, unless you make the car entirely self-driving.
 

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Then Ford's Focus sales brochures should have stated on page 1: "You can't drive this econobox grocery getter like every other non-manual trans car sold for many FN decades. You have to drive it a special way, or it will grenade."



Ford F'd up here. No way to spin it.
Ford did mess it up, I'm not disagreeing with you. However, there is literally zero point in creeping at stop lights, for instance. You aren't getting any further at all. Hell, odds are the person in front of you isn't even gonna go the speed limit. It's a dumb habit that I'm pretty sure I had when I drove torque converter trans, and I blame other people that do it for me picking it up. Now I don't do it anymore.

I allow space and move when I can apply enough throttle. My only concern with this vehicle is driving below full engagement speed in parking lots, and parking safely for the clutches. I have to stop and catch myself cause I'll try to ease up with the brake if I want to move up. That's a major downside right there to a DCT. Makes me nervous because I'm one of those people that can't stand their vehicle not being parked straight.

When you're in a traffic jam it's annoying the same way I figure a manual is. Gas the the throttle, pull up, and brake. Rinse and repeat. This is one of only a couple of instances where driving a DCT is annoying. Otherwise it's fine, but Ford definitely puts too much slip into the launch. For some reason, they don't see an issue with it, and it causes defects in your clutch packs.

All dry DCTS are supposed to be driven differently, not just the DPS6. Ford messed up further by calling it "Powershift Automatic" rather than a Dual Clutch Automatic. Hell, call it semi-automatic; might sound stupid but it's far more accurate. Most Americans know jack shit about manual trans anyway.
 

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This same transmission (6DCT250) is found in several Renault vehicles, and my research indicates that their version doesn't have shudder issues. I can't find a thing that indicates it's any different a trans.

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Have you searched the "French" car forums?

Try Renault EDC6 , not the EDC7 which is the wet clutch.

My research from around the EU markets regarding the EDC6 (Renaults code for the Getrag 6DCT250) has the exact same issues as its twin the 6DCT250, with "heat" being the culprit.
 

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Have you searched the "French" car forums?



Try Renault EDC6 , not the EDC7 which is the wet clutch.



My research from around the EU markets regarding the EDC6 (Renaults code for the Getrag 6DCT250) has the exact same issues as its twin the 6DCT250, with "heat" being the culprit.
Hmm, where did you find this info? I haven't seen any of that. I've been on different forums and what I've seen people say is it's the same as the Ford version, except the tuning is different. Also, it has to be, because the motors Renault is putting in them have far more power than the Fiesta/Focus. I believe 225+ horsepower. Focus and Fiesta are much less. I could see heat maybe being an issue in the Renault version because of the increased horsepower and probably torque as well.

The only complaint I saw was they needed a software update because the vehicle would lose power, maybe similar to the TCM issues, but maybe not if a software update fixes the issue.


Edit: Went to the French Car forums and couldn't find more than 2 posts on the EDC6. Then I followed the link below, and it seems there is a bunch of misinformation. The problems in this thread are apparently being confused. One of the comments said these trans have been mostly bulletproof in the Renault vehicles and that the EDC7 is the problem model. Ironic because it's the wet clutch one.

https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/31wlk7q3
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Hmm, where did you find this info? I haven't seen any of that. I've been on different forums and what I've seen people say is it's the same as the Ford version, except the tuning is different. Also, it has to be, because the motors Renault is putting in them have far more power than the Fiesta/Focus. I believe 225+ horsepower. Focus and Fiesta are much less. I could see heat maybe being an issue in the Renault version because of the increased horsepower and probably torque as well.

The only complaint I saw was they needed a software update because the vehicle would lose power, maybe similar to the TCM issues, but maybe not if a software update fixes the issue.


Edit: Went to the French Car forums and couldn't find more than 2 posts on the EDC6. Then I followed the link below, and it seems there is a bunch of misinformation. The problems in this thread are apparently being confused. One of the comments said these trans have been mostly bulletproof in the Renault vehicles and that the EDC7 is the problem model. Ironic because it's the wet clutch one.

https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/31wlk7q3
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Since this post also refers to Renault, I'm going to do a copypasta from my response in the other thread:


I'm going to need links instead of your executive summary, because there is a fair amount of misinformation being spread around regarding PowerShift, Renault, and the Getrag DCT lineup in general.

The short version is that Renault didn't fix anything, they just moved to the wet variant (6DCT450 / 6DCT470 and depending on torque requirements).

Furthermore, the DPS6 is not that same as the EDC; it's Ford's own variation on the 6DCT250 platform. A presentation by Magna PT (who bought Getrag in 2015 and finally retired the Getrag name in 2018) in 2016 even speaks to this fact, since it notes the changes to the 6DCT250 for use in the Renault Clio RS. "6DCT250" is a layout, or a platform. Not every implementation of the 6DCT250 is the same (either in software or hardware).

And even if it were the same, Renault only made the EDC available on very specific combinations of their cars, and only in certain markets. Specifically, the Mégane IV and Scénic IV when mated to the K9K 846 1.5L dCi 110 FAP diesel, and a revised version (dubbed "Twinamic") in the Twingo when mated to the TCe 90 (gas) engine. The EDC/Twinamic never came standard, and was only available in some places. And as I linked above, they have the same issues as the DPS6.
 

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I don't recall a lot of other manufacturers selling DCTs telling customers they are the problem not their transmission.

And face it,the DCT is an automatic transmission when it's all said an done.
 

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I don't recall a lot of other manufacturers selling DCTs telling customers they are the problem not their transmission.



And face it,the DCT is an automatic transmission when it's all said an done.
Because the customer is not the problem in Ford's case. Ford is directly to blame. You have people all over the internet saying the software is junk. Then you have Ford saying they're programming extra slip into it to make the car "more comfortable" at launch. Sounds awful fishy, does it not?

People do need to know what they're driving though. You are never supposed to creep in a dry dual clutch. They *should* be telling people this. Plus, like I said, creeping at red lights literally gets you nowhere. Just my opinion that it's a dumb habit. You're overheating your clutches by creeping. Needs to be common knowledge at this point.

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Since this post also refers to Renault, I'm going to do a copypasta from my response in the other thread:


I'm going to need links instead of your executive summary, because there is a fair amount of misinformation being spread around regarding PowerShift, Renault, and the Getrag DCT lineup in general.

The short version is that Renault didn't fix anything, they just moved to the wet variant (6DCT450 / 6DCT470 and depending on torque requirements).

Furthermore, the DPS6 is not that same as the EDC; it's Ford's own variation on the 6DCT250 platform. A presentation by Magna PT (who bought Getrag in 2015 and finally retired the Getrag name in 2018) in 2016 even speaks to this fact, since it notes the changes to the 6DCT250 for use in the Renault Clio RS. "6DCT250" is a layout, or a platform. Not every implementation of the 6DCT250 is the same (either in software or hardware).

And even if it were the same, Renault only made the EDC available on very specific combinations of their cars, and only in certain markets. Specifically, the Mégane IV and Scénic IV when mated to the K9K 846 1.5L dCi 110 FAP diesel, and a revised version (dubbed "Twinamic") in the Twingo when mated to the TCe 90 (gas) engine. The EDC/Twinamic never came standard, and was only available in some places. And as I linked above, they have the same issues as the DPS6.
I will give you that there's misinformation abound. Because Getrag and Borg-warner are pretty much the 2 manufacturers that are producing dry and wet DCTs

As far as I can tell, the 220 Trophy is a higher horsepower vehicle. From that PDF, it states "minor hardware" changes and software as well. Sounds like the base model is your average 6DCT250. I'm having trouble finding all the threads but the Renaultsport UK forums is where I'm finding people talking about the Ford Powershift version. The link you sent me, it sounds like they were creeping everywhere with their DCT, which sets the car into limp mode in an effort to protect further heat and wear. To me, Ford just needs to tell people not to be creeping at stop lights. Not good because you're half engaging and slipping the hell out of the clutches. Heat is gonna build up fierce.

You are correct in saying it's a much smaller market. However, overall, I'm not finding the complaints. We are much more likely to hear from those dissatisfied, this is true.

Dry DCTs aren't flawless in my opinion, and they aren't fun to drive in parking lots if you're under 12 MPH. In mine it always feels like the clutches are dragging at 10 MPH. It's clear it doesn't drive as smooth at that speed.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https://www.ozrenaultsport.com/topic/31151-newbie-thinking-of-rs280/&share_tid=31151&share_fid=5329&share_type=t

Gonna try to pull up more if I can find it.

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This is the first I've heard of TCM problems from the Renault side. What I'm not clear on is if there have been many or even any failures from 16-18 on the Fiesta/Focus. Some people have had multiple changes on their cars. I'm at 86k miles on my original, but I've seen a lack of power twice, about a month apart each. To be clear, there's no guarantee the TCM is the offender; many things can cause a lack of power. My car is a 2016.

Other than shudder, for the most part I've had no problems in a little over 2 years of having the vehicle. I'm not sure if the noises they are talking about are the normal ones or not. People should realize, however, that some noises are in fact normal.

To me, there's no excuse if they haven't figured out the TCM issue at this point. I do know the early ones were especially bad. 40-60k miles was the norm before failure.

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So eight weeks into our latest clutches, the TCM went out. Dealer replaced it under the updated warranty. So our stats are this: 2014 MY, original owners, 4 clutches, two TCMs (all counting originally installed parts) and just hit 84k miles. Love everything else about the car; hate that Ford has abandoned us on a true fix for the DCT.
 

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So eight weeks into our latest clutches, the TCM went out. Dealer replaced it under the updated warranty. So our stats are this: 2014 MY, original owners, 4 clutches, two TCMs (all counting originally installed parts) and just hit 84k miles. Love everything else about the car; hate that Ford has abandoned us on a true fix for the DCT.
4 clutches? Good god. My car behaves much better with Tom's tune, but the jury is still out on my TCM. I'm currently on the second set of clutches (changed once).

So let me get this straight, it's your second TCM vs the stock one the car came with?

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"RS200 will have some teething issues with the DCT although I suspect the changes Renault Sport made to the cooling of the propiertry Getrag 6DCT250 means they won't have the same issues that people are seeing with the Fiesta and Focus."

The question is, what did Renault do cooling wise? I'm also still not convinced the software is the same as the Fiesta/Focus. Highly doubt it.



https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2191223

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