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Tom, I have some legitimate questions. The turbo kit, if I wanted to swap pistons to lower compression, what compression ratio would be smart to go with? Also, bigger injectors would be smart to go with, do you think ST ones would be sufficient? Another question would be, which turbos would you recommend for the DIY kit?
Tom ^^^^^ those are the types of questions I want answers to.

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That's why you see disclaimers "for off-road use only "

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"“In the course of selecting cases for enforcement, the EPA has and will continue to consider whether the tampered vehicle is used exclusively for competition. The EPA remains primarily concerned with cases where the tampered vehicle is used on public roads, and more specifically with aftermarket manufacturers who sell devices that defeat emission control systems on vehicles used on public roads.”
 

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"“In the course of selecting cases for enforcement, the EPA has and will continue to consider whether the tampered vehicle is used exclusively for competition. The EPA remains primarily concerned with cases where the tampered vehicle is used on public roads, and more specifically with aftermarket manufacturers who sell devices that defeat emission control systems on vehicles used on public roads.”
If we sell for off-road use only and the customer decides to use on road, it's on the customer.

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If we sell for off-road use only and the customer decides to use on road, it's on the customer.

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You should read the article.

"There is no proviso for track-only use—tampering covers the certified purpose of the engine, not the car. "
 

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You should read the article.

"There is no proviso for track-only use—tampering covers the certified purpose of the engine, not the car. "
I did, so it would go after the manufacturer making the product, not the dealer selling the product. So not much for me to worry about.

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Any modification that changes the intake or Exh on your engine is illegal if you get right down to it , even changing to a larger turbo , tuning your stock turbo its all illegal
From your link "It has been illegal to modify any emissions equipment on any engine sold for road-legal use in the US since the Clean Air Act was amended in 1977. It’s called “tampering,” and in a bulletin that the EPA sent to mechanics in 1980, it’s defined as, “removing, disconnecting, damaging, or in any way rendering ineffective any emission control device or element installed on a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine "

Many dont know but the stock air box and intake is part of the "emission equipment " and by dong a cold air intake your doing it illegally

This is exactly why I moved the Turbo stuff to my section , you only mentioned " changing turbo was illegal " in the section where I am doing/selling turbo kits , it was a pot shot , you will come back and say you didnt mean anything by it yet its there and why I wont allow you in the focus-power section to take more potshots

Tom
Did anyone actually read the article? He didn't take a pot-shot at you, he directly quoted a paragraph. There's a pretty big difference.

Tom ^^^^^ those are the types of questions I want answers to.

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You're going to be waiting a while if you don't specifically go ask them in the censored thread.
 

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I did, so it would go after the manufacturer making the product, not the dealer selling the product. So not much for me to worry about.

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But you make tunes and aftermarket parts so there actually is reason to worry. Not saying it's likely, but still possible.
 

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But you make tunes and aftermarket parts so there actually is reason to worry. Not saying it's likely, but still possible.
True, our standard tunes do not bypass any emission monitoring items, until a header is added, Tune should comply except possibly in Cali. But still true

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Tom, I have some legitimate questions. The turbo kit, if I wanted to swap pistons to lower compression, what compression ratio would be smart to go with? Also, bigger injectors would be smart to go with, do you think ST ones would be sufficient? Another question would be, which turbos would you recommend for the DIY kit?
IMO those questions are both impossible & easy to answer.

Easy answer for C/R and injectors to start with might be to use the ST specs., 9.6:1 for the compression ratio and ST Injectors once confirmed for fitment (has that been checked?). That would be a starting point to mod. the "full kit".

Impossible in that a "best" C/R hasn't been tested, and turbo selection always depends on goals that need to be stated before a recommendation could be made. DIY kit right now is an answer waiting for the question. Better starting point for someone ready to experiment & push the limits as parts are sourced to support it, or use as a temp. solution with owner sourced components at the low end of cost/power with more room for growth as parts become avail..



EDIT - 9.6:1 was the number I saw for an older 2.0 duratec option, not correct for the ST.
 

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IMO those questions are both impossible & easy to answer.

Easy answer for C/R and injectors to start with might be to use the ST specs., 9.6:1 for the compression ratio and ST Injectors once confirmed for fitment (has that been checked?). That would be a starting point to mod. the "full kit".
The single scroll 2.0L EcoBoost has a 9.3:1 static compression ratio, and the twin scroll has a 9.7:1 static compression ratio. Neither of which are 9.6:1.

The 2.0L GDI Ti-VCT has a 12:1 static compression ratio.
 

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I personally wouldn't want a lower c/r. You gain the ability to run lower octane fuel and it's easier to manage cylinder temps/pressures (directly related, obviously) but you lose the low-end torque. Everybody is willing to have a torque curve that doesn't start until 4k until they have to daily-drive it. It makes for a great racecar but not so much great for anytime that has stoplights, stop signs, or traffic in their commute.

There's always the hardcore 'a hate myself so I prefer complete lag until 500rpm before redline and then 45psi' masochists, but they are more of an exception to the rule. I'll take high c/r for low-end torque, moderate boost starting around 3k, then proper cam overlap management and extra timing for the last 500-1k rpm to keep torque flat. But that's just me, I have to drive my car every day.
 

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That's actually a really good point Duane. I wonder how well these stock internals will hold the boost. These cars are not too bad off the line. Rather quick actually. I didn't even think about the driveability aspect of a higher CR boosted car.

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The problem with OEM internals is that you're never going to 'know' until enough of them let go to establish a relative maximum power level. Data and math can give you an idea but without a history it's still only going to be an educated guess. Nobody wants to be that guy (or those people) but when people stop and take some time to be realistic they will understand that that's the only actual way.

A lot of people disregard driveability and only focus on specific power numbers. I'm not saying that power numbers should not be a focus, but there's a lot more to it than just that. Some people take issue with the fact that the ST's don't pull superior torque numbers beyond redline but if they take some time to think rationally they will realize that the maximum torque exists where the majority of daily driving is done. That may not be as fun of a power curve during a half-mile drag race but that's not where these cars get their high-accolades, they get them from people that drive them in everyday situations like around town or canyon-carving on the weekend.

A 500 whp FoST can be less fun, as much fun, or more fun than a completely stock FoST. What makes that determination is the driver and the situation.
 

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The single scroll 2.0L EcoBoost has a 9.3:1 static compression ratio, and the twin scroll has a 9.7:1 static compression ratio. Neither of which are 9.6:1.

The 2.0L GDI Ti-VCT has a 12:1 static compression ratio.
You'd know better, I mis-spoke after looking at both what's avail. for the prev. 2.0 D (9.6 aftermarket) and the ST numbers.
 

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Duane makes very valid points. Why do you think people prefer a V8? Its not just more power but the low end torque that you have available through most of your usual daily driving. Very few people wind out an engine in their daily commute and it uses a lot of gas doing this.

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Discussion Starter #96

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That Guy
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Duane makes very valid points. Why do you think people prefer a V8? Its not just more power but the low end torque that you have available through most of your usual daily driving. Very few people wind out an engine in their daily commute and it uses a lot of gas doing this.

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On the flip-side, there are also some seen/unseen benefits to having ridiculous lag or lower c/r in a daily-driver. Fuel mileage typically goes up. There's more of a safety factor regarding fuel quality and octane availability. There's probably a causal relationship with safety because the increased lag wouldn't lend to punching the throttle as often (if that makes sense).

Such is the life with boosted four-cylinders, fortunately/unfortunately. Unlike a V8, we have to be much more precise about how we want our power delivery and where we want it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just requires a realistic analysis of what the user wants in comparison to how the car will be used.

I know of members in the ST community that are on their third or fourth turbo simply because what they thought they wanted and what they realistically wanted were not actually the same thing.
 

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So, some of the bare minimal information is beginning to arrive. I wasn't going to comment on it in the open forum but seems how my 'thank you' got censored, I decided that I may as well. I think it's fair considering the fact that they were my questions to begin with. Besides, it's what people should be discussing anyways

So I guess the things in red are the first issues that I see. Here's my general breakdown of this info. It doesn't seem odd to me at all-he's clearly not going to want to admit the manufacturer but knows the exact dimensions of the FMIC.

-What are the power goals of the kit?
**** This kit has already done 240 HP to the wheels and thats about what the internal waste gate is set to make

-What size/brand is the turbo?
**** The Turbo is a TDO5 16g with built in internal waste gate and built in BOV , there will be an upgrade offered in time and this turbo may change totally after further testing

-What size/brand is the FMIC?
**** I dont remeber the brand and it really doesnt matter , size is 6x26x2.5 the IC will support 350hp with no issues

-Bar and plate or tube and fin core?
**** Tube and fin

-Who makes the FMIC tubing?
**** Custom made

-What size is the tubing and couplers?
**** 2 and 2.5 , couplers 2 and 2.5

-What kind of clamps come with the kit?
**** t-bolt may change this to worm style tho

-What modifications need to be done in order to fit it or is it a direct bolt-on (strictly in the physical sense)?
Its pretty much a direct bolt on

-What is not included in the kit that will have to be purchased?
**** Boost gauge , Oil , Oil filter , 180 deg thermostat , Antifreeze ,
We're talking about a kit to move more air and create more power than the FoST. In doing that, why use an intercooler that's smaller than what comes OEM on the FoST. Granted, it's 96% the size of the OEM FMIC and that's pretty close (only 16.25 cubic inches smaller), but the FoST FMIC is mostly overwhelmed at OEM power levels, let alone post-tune/stage modifications.
The amount of heat created isn't going to be the same thanks to the larger turbo and lower boost level, but things get worse the moment that we notice it's tube and fin. It's a relatively common debate, but it's pretty much common knowledge that you will have increased charge-temp cooling with bar and plate. As an example, the only tube and fin core FMIC in the FiST community is produced by Mountune and it is not even questioned to be the absolute worst aftermarket intercooler for the platform. Literally the only FMIC that has done worse was OEM and even then it wasn't by much.

Changing from T-bolt to worm-style (if that happens) is a step backwards.

So now I'm interested in how charge temps are going to be monitored, if at all. I would imagine they won't be. Comparatively, here are how the FMIC's stack up in sizing, but both the OEM FoST and Cobb FiST designs are both bar and plate-

Stock FoST FMIC
Core Dimensions:
26" x 6.25" x 2.5"
Core Volume:
406.25 cu in

Forgotten Brand FMIC
Core Dimensions:
26" x 6" x 2.5"
Core Volume:
390 cu in

Cobb FiST FMIC
Core Dimensions:
27.5" x 6" x 3"
Core Volume:
495 cu in

I should look up our 'race' FMIC's for the FiST/FoST and see what the sizing is on those in comparison to OEM sizes. They're pretty substantial but all backed with data. And realistically speaking, plenty of cars work well with high charge temps, you're just having to give up some of the power to maintain the safety margin of your cylinder temps and pressures.

I'm curious to see how fueling plays out. I've never looked into the fuel setup for the Mk3 because we were never at a point that we would have needed that info, but if it's similar in theory (but not in parts) to the ST platforms then I doubt the fuel pumps will be able to meet the increased demands. I could totally be wrong, just making an assumption at this point. Aux fuel was the stalling point of both platforms for quite a while and they're still only at 'band-aid' levels of problem resolution so far.

P.S.-Adding a boost gauge is going to require a mounting solution along with tubing/wiring to make it work. As much as I would like to think that someone ordering a turbo kit would have that level of mechanical know-how, I have really been questioning society for the last few years.

I also wonder where there will be 2" charge piping, even my FiST is no smaller than 2.5" everywhere...

I'll probably take a look at the compressor map for the turbo later and do some related math out of curiosity. Definitely interesting and lots of questions that will mostly only be able to be answered with time, tuning, and datalogs.
 

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Your " thank you " got deleted because I clearly asked you to not post in my section I deleted the BS you posted just before the thank you , why would I delete one and not the other ?

Just like this post you pick out all the things you think is bad yet you have never built a turbo kit and only comparing what I am doing to the crappy OEM ST parts

Yes said nothing about the good things , your out to do nothing but bash me and you for some reason get away with it every time , stay out of my section

Tom
 

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The fact that you are kicking him out of that section and asking him not to post is turning me off of this kit. The reason being that he is asking valid questions that you are choosing as you are mine. I wanted to ask my questions here so others can chime in and it not be censored to only what you have to say.

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