Focus Fanatics Forum banner

21 - 32 of 32 Posts

·
FF Affiliate
Joined
·
30,768 Posts
And I know the 'holy grail' for many guys is simply HP, but some of us like drive-ability best, as long as HP is decent enough to agree with the whole car.
WHAT ? The SVT is VERY WELL balances with boost , I Tune for as good or better driveability then stock with Boost , its well balanced for boost because the SVT started life as the FR200 which was Turbocharged then changed to NA at the last meeting , Driveability is more then Tuning is what your going to say next , So I will also add the SVT has Factory bigger and better brakes , suspension and more which makes it a very well balanced Vehicle

In the case of an SVT/ST170, there is a Getrag to consider... 6 speed, close ratio with a short 1st gear. Gobs of HP coming on in a rush, makes the trans a poor fit.
Actually the SVT Getreg 6 speed is very well suited for Boost , Just how long when you drive are you in 1st gear , the 5 speed MTX-75 Getreg has the same 1st gear issue ????

The SVT makes a poor dragster, it is a road/track car, when set up properly.
Hmmm , Odd my SVT has run 12`s in the 1320 with the stock Engine Turbocharged , worked very well for me on the 1/4 mile and the Mustangs I out ran thought the same

No amount of talk about peak HP in an SVT can change my opinion that it's better to boost something else, the SVT is good NA car, with a few tweaks.
Peek HP , who said anything about peek HP , I build for over all , good flat or climbing TQ curves , good balanced driveability , My guess is you have never drove a proper built Turbocharged SVT and sense you havent how can you judge ?

Of course, I made clean-up changes to my SVT and got ~190, also improved brakes and handling. That was enough to be plenty of fun driving it as it was intended... eating up corners on road and track, and efficient cruising on street. Nuff said.
I call BS if your saying you made " clean up " changes to your SVT and made 190 whp ????? My Turbocharged SVT is PERFECTLY balanced for eating up corners , fun driving , road track , efficient cruising , it will 100% hang , drive , respond as yours does yet out perform it in ever way being Turbocharged

Tom
 

·
Grey Friar
Joined
·
927 Posts
That raised some eyebrows, huh? LOL, sorry (I guess)... that is approximated 'bhp', figured back from 166whp, in order to compare/expose the difference between the stock configuration of ~170bhp, and 'as-modified'. Probably ~19 hp gain over stock.

IIRC, powder-coated and wrapped header/ORP/flex, w/2.5 inch custom exhaust (inc ORP/flex) w/one resonator where the back 'muffler' goes, 'ported' TB w/flat plate installed, 'accordion' tube replaced with smooth tube and soft-silicone couplings, Euro cold air, foam air filter, UDP (I think, but might not have been installed), MSD coil/wires, dbl electrode plugs (don't remember name), improved grounds, flow-matched injectors, stock thermostat w/water wetter coolant, minimum lash on all valves, 93 octane SCT tune... there's a bit more, like Amsoil 0W-30 oil, and Moly gear additive, well maintained everything from wheel bearings to accessories, (also lightweight wheels and great Nokian tires, but those probably didn't have too much to do with it). Only went for one session, ~870 ft above sea level, on a colder day it would have been a touch better.
 

·
Grey Friar
Joined
·
927 Posts
Gee, Tom, it makes me wonder why Ford hasn't hired you to design their SVTs... why not all their cars?
 

·
FF Affiliate
Joined
·
30,768 Posts
That raised some eyebrows, huh? LOL, sorry (I guess)... that is approximated 'bhp', figured back from 166whp, in order to compare/expose the difference between the stock configuration of ~170bhp, and 'as-modified'. Probably ~19 hp gain over stock.
The mods below wouldnt gain 19 whp or close to it

IIRC, powder-coated and wrapped header/ORP/flex, w/2.5 inch custom exhaust (inc ORP/flex) w/one resonator where
the back 'muffler' goes,
The stock SVT Exh is 2.25 , going to 2.5 does very little in performance gains , adding ORP with 2.50 might net 2-3 whp the biggest gain is 3 inch from header back 7-9 whp

'ported' TB w/flat plate installed,
Ported TB has 0 whp gain

'accordion' tube replaced with smooth tube and soft-silicone couplings, Euro cold air, foam air filter
The best performance is the SVT stock box and hose with a drop in filter

UDP 0 performance gain

MSD coil/wires, dbl electrode plugs (don't remember name),
0 performance gains best plugs for the SVT is Motorcraft SP463

improved grounds,
0 performance gains

flow-matched injectors,
0 performance gains

stock thermostat w/water wetter coolant,
180 thermostat has proven to run the engine cooler with the fans set which in turn lowers the detonation threshold and cooler engine makes better performance , if your running stock 192 thermostat , no tune to turn the fans on sooner water wetter wont do anything and if you have a Tune there is no reason for the water wetter you wont run hot ,0 performance gain , adding a 180 will show minimal gains and make a safer Engine

minimum lash on all valves,
Factory valve last makes the best performance going to tight on the Exh will cause engine damage

93 octane SCT tune...
One of the best mods you can add to a SVT if done proper

there's a bit more, like Amsoil 0W-30 oil, and Moly gear additive
Regular oil will do as good as amsoil or royal purple and much cheaper , Mobile 15/50 full synthetic in the trans makes it quieter and much better then moly gear additive from what I have seen racing them

Tom
 

·
FF Affiliate
Joined
·
30,768 Posts
Gee, Tom, it makes me wonder why Ford hasn't hired you to design their SVTs... why not all their cars?
I have been offered Jobs doing Tuning , Fabrication , Engine Building over the years with Income offers that would stun most people , I dont like working for others , I like being able to do it the right way and you can rarely do that working for others , It isnt just about the money for me

Tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
Any engine can be boosted, but so what? If you add a turbo, you will lose that nice scavenging header. If you add a supercharger you will lose the nicely tuned IM. You know that as well as I do, stop trying to pretend you can keep them both with boost... one or the other is going. My original statement remains: better to just take a plain-Jane Zetec or Duratec, and build it mechanically to thrive on boost, the SVT is already an NA beauty, it only needs to be freed from some of the compromises the engineers had to make in any production street car that meets EPA standards.
I can speak from experience in having both a JRSC BBK installed and now a turbo on my SVT. First the SC, if you are saying that by adding a SC I somehow missed the "tuned" IM from the factory...uh no. With the JRSC, the low end response was excellent, and it carried a nice building powerband with rising rpm...and rising boost. The biggest problem was the heat generated. It became rather ineffective on hot days as the intake air was increased exponentially by the "un-cool" blower.
Everything evolves, and my SC evolved into a special Garrett BB turbo in my case. With the turbo came a complete engine rebuild as mine had 200k on it. The engine build and tuning were all done by Tom (BTW, the engine build maintained the stock compression, albeit with all new forged goodies to support big power). With my current setup, I am using the stock IM and am currently at approx 20PSI of boost. This is making 300hp/318tq at the wheels. (92 octane)
Driving around town my SVT is better than it ever was in stock form, the throttle response is excellent, there is zero "bog" down low where the stock SVT always suffered. And with my particular turbo, pressure starts building very quickly at 3000rpm and am hitting full boost by 4000-4200 (not looking at the tach and gauge, rather the road).

The best upgrade one can do for the SVT with added power is an LSD, which makes corner carving in my car extremely fun. Its always a blast disappointing ST owners as they get bested by my old SVT.

If you want to keep your old SVT and make it better, slap a turbo on it!
 

·
Grey Friar
Joined
·
927 Posts
While I understand that the above SVT was more fun after altering it from NA to turbo, anyone can make any car faster by putting turbo on it. How much more shocked would the ST driver be when he gets walked-over by a Mk1 SE sedan? More.

My point was NOT whether boost can add HP/Tq (everybody knows boost will add HP/Tq... big deal). My point was 'why take a finely tuned, RARE car and change it, when you can have as much fun in any one the worlds millions of other cars'? A 300+HP Zetec sedan (properly built and tuned with boost, an LSD, and suspension mods) has given many people all the wow-moments they wanted... up until it was time to scrap the motor, by the time that happened the body was still good, so swap in another motor. (Also, there are much better 2Ls for boosting than a Zetec.) IMO, the SVT is too good a car as-designed (especially, when tweaked) to be treated with such disrespect as boosting it like any common beater. Many of us respected the efforts Ford made to take their little econo-hatch and turn it into a competitive track-worthy car (LSD is a must, when the rules allow).

Power is only one thing. We all enjoy oddities like seeing an old Cosworth Chevy Vega, or an Amphicar 770, or a Volvo P1800, or an original Studebaker Avanti at a car show. One day, the stock Mk1 Focus SVT will draw crowds too, and if it sits next to one that was altered, the stock one will have more appreciators.

BTW, more power does not make the six-speed SVT into a 'good dragster', too much sawing at the shifter... a 'good dragster' was my buddy's '68 Cobra GT500 (with a few tweaks)... went to ~60 in 1st, and usually could shut-down before you had to worry about spinning the tires going into 3rd at high speeds. Less shifts means hands-on-the-wheel more, which makes driving easier, even if you are going straight... that's one definition of 'drive-ability'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
While I understand that the above SVT was more fun after altering it from NA to turbo, anyone can make any car faster by putting turbo on it. How much more shocked would the ST driver be when he gets walked-over by a Mk1 SE sedan? More.

My point was NOT whether boost can add HP/Tq (everybody knows boost will add HP/Tq... big deal). My point was 'why take a finely tuned, RARE car and change it, when you can have as much fun in any one the worlds millions of other cars'? A 300+HP Zetec sedan (properly built and tuned with boost, an LSD, and suspension mods) has given many people all the wow-moments they wanted... up until it was time to scrap the motor, by the time that happened the body was still good, so swap in another motor. (Also, there are much better 2Ls for boosting than a Zetec.) IMO, the SVT is too good a car as-designed (especially, when tweaked) to be treated with such disrespect as boosting it like any common beater. Many of us respected the efforts Ford made to take their little econo-hatch and turn it into a competitive track-worthy car (LSD is a must, when the rules allow).

Power is only one thing. We all enjoy oddities like seeing an old Cosworth Chevy Vega, or an Amphicar 770, or a Volvo P1800, or an original Studebaker Avanti at a car show. One day, the stock Mk1 Focus SVT will draw crowds too, and if it sits next to one that was altered, the stock one will have more appreciators.

BTW, more power does not make the six-speed SVT into a 'good dragster', too much sawing at the shifter... a 'good dragster' was my buddy's '68 Cobra GT500 (with a few tweaks)... went to ~60 in 1st, and usually could shut-down before you had to worry about spinning the tires going into 3rd at high speeds. Less shifts means hands-on-the-wheel more, which makes driving easier, even if you are going straight... that's one definition of 'drive-ability'.
Long winded opinion, doesn't change one thing about the way I think, and its not the way you do. To each their own I say.
 

·
FF Affiliate
Joined
·
30,768 Posts
While I understand that the above SVT was more fun after altering it from NA to turbo, anyone can make any car faster by putting turbo on it. How much more shocked would the ST driver be when he gets walked-over by a Mk1 SE sedan? More.

My point was NOT whether boost can add HP/Tq (everybody knows boost will add HP/Tq... big deal). My point was 'why take a finely tuned, RARE car and change it, when you can have as much fun in any one the worlds millions of other cars'? A 300+HP Zetec sedan (properly built and tuned with boost, an LSD, and suspension mods) has given many people all the wow-moments they wanted... up until it was time to scrap the motor, by the time that happened the body was still good, so swap in another motor. (Also, there are much better 2Ls for boosting than a Zetec.) IMO, the SVT is too good a car as-designed (especially, when tweaked) to be treated with such disrespect as boosting it like any common beater. Many of us respected the efforts Ford made to take their little econo-hatch and turn it into a competitive track-worthy car (LSD is a must, when the rules allow).

Power is only one thing. We all enjoy oddities like seeing an old Cosworth Chevy Vega, or an Amphicar 770, or a Volvo P1800, or an original Studebaker Avanti at a car show. One day, the stock Mk1 Focus SVT will draw crowds too, and if it sits next to one that was altered, the stock one will have more appreciators.

BTW, more power does not make the six-speed SVT into a 'good dragster', too much sawing at the shifter... a 'good dragster' was my buddy's '68 Cobra GT500 (with a few tweaks)... went to ~60 in 1st, and usually could shut-down before you had to worry about spinning the tires going into 3rd at high speeds. Less shifts means hands-on-the-wheel more, which makes driving easier, even if you are going straight... that's one definition of 'drive-ability'.
Again I dont agree , I feel the 6 speed does a good job and I have run 12`s with the stock SVT Engine and Turbo with the stock Continental Tires , couldnt do that if it was a bad gearing

You do know the SVT started life Turbocharged , the FR200 was the SVT in Testing , Its why the SVT has Forged Rods , Oil squirters on the Pistons better brakes and a few more goodies so to say the SVT Boosted " be treated with such disrespect as boosting it " Is just silly

The SVT with Turbo is how it started life with Ford and Boost on a SVT makes it a more rounded Car just like Ford designed it to be

Tom
 

·
Grey Friar
Joined
·
927 Posts
6-speed dragster (LOL). I mentioned "drive-ability", you are just talking about numbers. They are not the same thing at all. You know a Nissan GTR? That car is fast, gobs of power, and a 6-speed... but it's an automatic, w/AWD... ~11 sec quarter. That car may be fine for DD or showing off at stop lights, and it will run away from most cars on the track (set a high mark at Nurburgring), but it fights the driver near it's limits. Most people couldn't drive one near its limits without crashing and killing themselves. Near the design limits of an SVT, it is far more drive-able than the Nissan... sure the limits are lower, and in a race the SVT would be left in the dust, but that's not "drive-ability", that's "performance specs". Anybody with skills can drive an SVT near it's limits, as long as it hasn't been modded too extremely. As designed, the SVT is a great handling, highly drive-able car on a road course pushing its limits, and even as a DD with the Getrag.

Drive-ability is different from absolute performance... just like WHP is about more than simply adding more power to the engine, it's also about reducing friction losses on the way to the ground (dynamometer)... the difference between BHP and WHP. BTW, I had a stock airbox... the Euro cold air is in front of that (grill and diverter). Also, Amsoil has a lighter syncro oil for gearboxes (5W-30), it's not the same as their motor oil, a different animal, and when you add the race-designed Moly additive, the combo results in the lowest friction coefficient I've ever felt or heard of... probably worth ~3 WHP in the dyno. Also, Water Wetter reduces water pump cavitation at high rpms and keeps an engine running cooler at high rpms, much better than having a thermostat that simply opens sooner... when an engine is at running temp, the coolant is hotter than both the 180 or the 192. There are other missed points, but no more bothering about them.

I'm sorry to have participated this much in the high-jacking of this guys thread, just because I posted an opinion about his search for a SC... so this will be the last thing I post here.... say what you will.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,075 Posts
I have to agree with Tom.
I have been working on cars since I was 14 and to say it's disrespectful to supercharge or turbo charge a car is just dumb.
The car's engine was obviously designed for more power and they went a different direction Tom mentions this.

Have fun with it and do what you want. keeping the car alive and enjoying it is truly the definition of a car enthusiast.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 

·
FF Affiliate
Joined
·
30,768 Posts
6-speed dragster (LOL). I mentioned "drive-ability", you are just talking about numbers. They are not the same thing at all. You know a Nissan GTR? That car is fast, gobs of power, and a 6-speed... but it's an automatic, w/AWD... ~11 sec quarter. That car may be fine for DD or showing off at stop lights, and it will run away from most cars on the track (set a high mark at Nurburgring), but it fights the driver near it's limits. Most people couldn't drive one near its limits without crashing and killing themselves. Near the design limits of an SVT, it is far more drive-able than the Nissan... sure the limits are lower, and in a race the SVT would be left in the dust, but that's not "drive-ability", that's "performance specs". Anybody with skills can drive an SVT near it's limits, as long as it hasn't been modded too extremely. As designed, the SVT is a great handling, highly drive-able car on a road course pushing its limits, and even as a DD with the Getrag.

Drive-ability is different from absolute performance... just like WHP is about more than simply adding more power to the engine, it's also about reducing friction losses on the way to the ground (dynamometer)... the difference between BHP and WHP. BTW, I had a stock airbox... the Euro cold air is in front of that (grill and diverter). Also, Amsoil has a lighter syncro oil for gearboxes (5W-30), it's not the same as their motor oil, a different animal, and when you add the race-designed Moly additive, the combo results in the lowest friction coefficient I've ever felt or heard of... probably worth ~3 WHP in the dyno. Also, Water Wetter reduces water pump cavitation at high rpms and keeps an engine running cooler at high rpms, much better than having a thermostat that simply opens sooner... when an engine is at running temp, the coolant is hotter than both the 180 or the 192. There are other missed points, but no more bothering about them.

I'm sorry to have participated this much in the high-jacking of this guys thread, just because I posted an opinion about his search for a SC... so this will be the last thing I post here.... say what you will.
So much personal opinions , all from never trying it or testing it , Misinformation and BS to try to correct any more , Im glad your done

Tom
 
21 - 32 of 32 Posts
Top