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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
About the transmission:
Could it be that the clutch is actually releasing and the trans is locking the axles when I have the gear selected?
There was no issue with the original clutch (which failed the same way when reinstalled) when I removed it, nor was there any transmission issue.
I drove the car to its parking spot the day the engine blew, no problem.
That's why I haven't wanted to blame the tranny (or even the original clutch which wouldn't work either).
The trans even worked for the 5 miles or so that I forced the car to drive with the original clutch when I got it all back together and it wouldn't engage.

If you are moving the TOB with no contact you hear it but when it hits solid you may not be actually moving it then to activate the PP. Meaning only enough pressure to move TOB with nothing against it = air in lines. You say you seem to feel the TOB pushing down on the PP though. Maybe moving PP slightly?

.002" divider plate = tinfoil, I expect you mean at least .020" there and maybe more, most are over that. That gone would be MORE engagement of the TOB.

There is no magic there, if you cannot find the issue you MUST measure for operating distance to weed out the variable.

Assuming trans is not broken in some way.

Tom has said the cranks are the same.
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Trans would not likely do it.

Start engine trans in neutral = all of clutch turning and trans input shaft as well to be turning the up to neutral break point parts inside trans too. The same trans in neutral wheels jacked up to spin one while other side held stopped has the rest of trans turning up to the other side of neutral break point then, meaning not trans.

By neutral break point I mean the separation point inside trans where some parts turn and others do not when in neutral, whether at synchros or other location. Where the trans ceases to move parts, at least locked in at the same speeds.

I make this stuff up as I go along, there is no other way to put it.
 

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'...it wouldn't engage.' Post #43.

Once again the words become a problem. Still assuming the clutch will not separate to let car shift, er, it will not disengage. Engaged is clutch and flywheel turning as one and power flowing to trans.

If the other way are the axles BOTH all the way in the diff splines?

Forgive me if I am the one confusing things more. We need brain sync here, I haven't figured out a way to wire that yet. Maybe tomorrow.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Yeah, I just misstyped, but meant to put disengage.

I think the trans is fine too, now that I thought about it more.
It rolls in N, and shifts to any gear with no issue, and if I were to start the car in any gear, it will take off rolling, so, the trans functions fine.
It's gotta be just a 'clutch not releasing' issue.
The slave moves perfectly in sync with the pedal, from even the slightest push, and moves with the entire range of the pedal.
There is no dead area of the pedal's travel.

In the other two Zx3's, the clutches don't even feel as good as this one, yet they work fine.

Heck, in the SVT, the top half of the pedal's travel is dead, and it still works, so this one should've been rockin' a long time ago.

I may go through the drama of removing the SVT's and put it in and see if I get a different result.

It's just crazy that I have already replaced every component and I don't even get a different result.
I'm on my 2nd: FW, PP, disc, MC, slave, and clutch line.
'...it wouldn't engage.' Post #43.

Once again the words become a problem. Still assuming the clutch will not separate to let car shift, er, it will not disengage. Engaged is clutch and flywheel turning as one and power flowing to trans.

If the other way are the axles BOTH all the way in the diff splines?

Forgive me if I am the one confusing things more. We need brain sync here, I haven't figured out a way to wire that yet. Maybe tomorrow.
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MEASURE. Then you know if a hydraulic issue or a physical one.

The PP fingers may move 1/4" but the actual disc disengagement point buried in that distance is less than .060".

On the twin disc ones I used to do you had to time the two discs to release exactly at same time, there was a PP surface, disc, a cast iron floater/separator plate maybe .500" thick and then another disc then flywheel. The floater mounted on springsteel straps that spaced away from PP with .030" shims, you then customized that shim thickness with the whole thing including flywheel thrown up on the drillpress and a trans input in place to release the discs like 500 times while sorting out the shim thickness to finally release .005" feeler gauges stuck in all around the assembly on both discs. Correct was all releasing around the same time/distance. We came up with all that, no book tells you that crap.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Agreed.
I should have tried measuring by now, but, how would I accurately measure how much the slave is moving the springs while it's all mated together?

I'm going to rig up an adjustable pedal stop, and try very minute adjustments through the whole range.
MEASURE. Then you know if a hydraulic issue or a physical one.

The PP fingers may move 1/4" but the actual disc disengagement point buried in that distance is less than .060".

On the twin disc ones I used to do you had to time the two discs to release exactly at same time, there was a PP surface, disc, a cast iron floater/separator plate maybe .500" thick and then another disc then flywheel. The floater mounted on springsteel straps that spaced away from PP with .030" shims, you then customized that shim thickness with the whole thing including flywheel thrown up on the drillpress and a trans input in place to release the discs like 500 times while sorting out the shim thickness to finally release .005" feeler gauges stuck in all around the assembly on both discs. Correct was all releasing around the same time/distance. We came up with all that, no book tells you that crap.
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This has me worried - a bit.

Agreed.
I should have tried measuring by now, but, how would I accurately measure how much the slave is moving the springs while it's all mated together?

I'm going to rig up an adjustable pedal stop, and try very minute adjustments through the whole range.

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Sleeper, IF I understand right, you have 'mixed and matched' some different components AND the slave is moving correctly? Actual and accurate measurement is the next step. BUT a good endoscope should work if you have the old clutch on the bench to compare and get a good idea of relative movement.

I'm in the process of replacing my SVT clutch with the LuK rep set. When I unboxed everything I 'checked' the slave cylinder like a doofus and pushed the bearing by hand to make sure it wouldn't bind... NOW I'm reading that doing that could damage or invert the internal seal. Great! I'll either get it right to give up and buy a liquor-mobile.
 

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If it was my car personally I would throw in the cheapest OEM plain jane clutch set I could get and see if it works. You're so focused on the hydraulic issue but you're not focused on your actual potential pressure plate or clutch disc issue. I don't care if the OEM style clutch set won't deal with the power output at this point you have absolutely nothing to lose just try it. My Brother had a weak leaking clutch master cylinder and he could still shift fine.

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Discussion Starter #51
If it was my car personally I would throw in the cheapest OEM plain jane clutch set I could get and see if it works. You're so focused on the hydraulic issue but you're not focused on your actual potential pressure plate or clutch disc issue. I don't care if the OEM style clutch set won't deal with the power output at this point you have absolutely nothing to lose just try it. My Brother had a weak leaking clutch master cylinder and he could still shift fine.

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I would agree with trying that idea if I hadn't already had the exact same symptom with the original working clutch setup reinstalled first.

My whole clutch set up worked fine.
Engine blew, I took the engine out, left the trans in place.

Had FW resurfaced correctly (and specs verified even recently again).

Put it all back in, perfect pedal pressure, no air in the line, slave moves witht he entire range of the pedal travel, but clutch won't release from FW.

Put on brand new FW, and matching components intended for this car, exact same symptom.

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I would agree with trying that idea if I hadn't already had the exact same symptom with the original working clutch setup reinstalled first.

My whole clutch set up worked fine.
Engine blew, I took the engine out, left the trans in place.

Had FW resurfaced correctly (and specs verified even recently again).

Put it all back in, perfect pedal pressure, no air in the line, slave moves witht he entire range of the pedal travel, but clutch won't release from FW.

Put on brand new FW, and matching components intended for this car, exact same symptom.

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Ive read thru this thread and your new 'washer' thread. Interesting issue.

So when you put is back together the first time after the engine blew the flywheel, PP, and slave were the same parts that were working previously?

Did you rebuild the existing engine or get a new engine?

Paul
 

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To limeyrider at post #49................

'...When I unboxed everything I 'checked' the slave cylinder like a doofus and pushed the bearing by hand to make sure it wouldn't bind... NOW I'm reading that doing that could damage or invert the internal seal...'

I wouldn't worry about that, going the OTHER way, or over-extension bearing coming OUT is what will get you in trouble. It is expected that at install or even before somebody will push the bearing back or it contacts the clutch at install (rocking trans to settle it in place) to do the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Yes sir.
Since the clutch worked great and had tons of life left on it, I reused everything.

Only thing about the engine that is different is the block is an SVT now.

Ive read thru this thread and your new 'washer' thread. Interesting issue.

So when you put is back together the first time after the engine blew the flywheel, PP, and slave were the same parts that were working previously?

Did you rebuild the existing engine or get a new engine?

Paul
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Yes sir.
Since the clutch worked great and had tons of life left on it, I reused everything.

Only thing about the engine that is different is the block is an SVT now.



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After reading thru both of your threads it seems to me that all you issues started when you changed engines. Is it possible there is a difference between the distance on the block-to-bell flange on the SVT block vs the original block and this is causing the dimensional issue you have (ie making the bell/slave farther away from the PP)?

Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #56
I had wondered about that, but everyone who has verified agrees that the SVT and Zetec cranks are identical in all dimensions.
I can tell that my machinists didn't take any material off of the mating surface of the snout.
I think washers behind the slave is going to do the trick.
Will hopefully get to it this week now that I'm slowing down for the season.
After reading thru both of your threads it seems to me that all you issues started when you changed engines. Is it possible there is a difference between the distance on the block-to-bell flange on the SVT block vs the original block and this is causing the dimensional issue you have (ie making the bell/slave farther away from the PP)?

Paul
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I had wondered about that, but everyone who has verified agrees that the SVT and Zetec cranks are identical in all dimensions.
Re-read what I wrote - I wasnt refering to the crank. The issue I was asking about had to do with the block. The block is what the bellhousing mounts to.

Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Re-read what I wrote - I wasnt refering to the crank. The issue I was asking about had to do with the block. The block is what the bellhousing mounts to.

Paul
Gotcha.
Blocks are supposedly the same dimensions too.

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Gotcha.
Blocks are supposedly the same dimensions too.
If the flange on the block you are using now is deeper (longer) then your bellhousing and slave will be further from the flywheel/clutch. Do you still have the old block to compare?

Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #60
I do.
I'll look at that first when I get to it this week.
If the flange on the block you are using now is deeper (longer) then your bellhousing and slave will be further from the flywheel/clutch. Do you still have the old block to compare?

Paul
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