Focus Fanatics Forum banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
C2H5OH
Joined
·
11,867 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Round abouts what are the gasoline guys replacing them at?
What are they replacing them with?
 

·
Thats What She Said
Joined
·
10,704 Posts
Stock Fuel Pump is usually maxing out at 300-350HP, those gains I belive you will still need the Kenny Bell Boost A Pump. Think over 250HP to 350HP will require the boost-a-pump. Over 350 the systems get converted over to return fuel system (seams like Mustang Fuel system / pump is what is used).
 

·
Shot me 3 deer!!!
Joined
·
9,247 Posts
what year? i beleive the 03-04's use different fuel pumps, IIRC. plus, ur running e85, right??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
I know this horse has been beat to death, but some people believe the SVT fuel pump is rated higher than the Zetec. I don't, I sure they're the same damn thing. I would say that for any NA build that the stock fuel pump is going to be fine.
 

·
GT40 all the things!
Joined
·
9,482 Posts
Kinda curious myself. I'll be needing to know this.
Posted via FF Mobile
 

·
Shot me 3 deer!!!
Joined
·
9,247 Posts
well, after return style, you shouldn[t need to go higher. after that, a custom setup will be required.

as for the pumps, i'm pretty sure they changed them between the 00-04 models. i do think that the 03-04's are all svt's, but the 02's and under are not. its hard to base hp on a fuel pump if running e85. you need more fuel/molecule of o2. so you need to flow more fuel. if john is running 173/151 whp/wtq right now, i'd say thats more than fine on the stock pump. i'm not into tuning, but if you wanna multiply ratio's, i beleive e85 is at what 10.7:1? and 93 octane is at 14.7/1 = 1.374 x more fuel. = 237 whp on 93. now, i honestly have no idea if my logic is correct. but it seems correct to me! lol

but you definitely need more fuel.

The stock pump is good for a bit more than that, but not too much, and once again, i think its a different pump if you have an earlier year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
397 Posts
What I meant was are there any other pumps that can be used on a returnless style that will outflow the svt pump.
 

·
Shot me 3 deer!!!
Joined
·
9,247 Posts
not that i'm aware of, most people just run a return style if ur getting towards 400 whp. i think roushturbozx3 did a dual walbro pump and made them fit in the stock canister, but i don't remember, ask him. he's pushing 600 whp
 

·
C2H5OH
Joined
·
11,867 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
The 'update' pump is the same as the SVT, which is what I have being my stocker took a dump. But I was in that 'recall' group.
IIRC it's '02.5+ that all have the same pump.

Just curious because I'm running about 85% DC by the looks of it.
 

·
C2H5OH
Joined
·
11,867 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Update:


50psi rail pressure, round abouts 230hp (at the FW) and I'm seeing ~48% DC from the fuel pump on E-85.
So that pretty much calms any thoughts I had that I might need a bigger pump. Stock will easily meet my goals.
 

·
FF Affiliate
Joined
·
31,095 Posts
NO the "update pump" is NOT the same as the SVT pump , There is only 1 true SVT fuel pump and that is the Motorcraft GREEN top fuel pump there are other Ford part # that show SVT fuel pumps that are not GREEN top fuel pumps and they also do not put out what the origional GREEN top pump puts out in LPH

The stock 02-04 is the same as the "updated pump" and will do in the 280 +/- range with out a problem , with good working pump , clean sock and filter I have pushed them to 320-330 to the wheels

People need to keep in mind that the fuel pump it self isnt the big problem its the built in return fuel system in the fuel pump cannister that is the issue

And yes the SVT fuel pump GREEN top puts out a good bit more then the stock or "update" fuel pump does

Tom
 

·
TURBO ZX3
Joined
·
8,746 Posts
Ill be running both GREEN top and BAP on my build
 

·
C2H5OH
Joined
·
11,867 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
E-85, stock pump (non-green);

Looks like the limit is about 220HP (flywheel, safe number).

Pretty sure I'm out of fuel with the cold weather.
As air flow increases, pressure drops. Commanded voltage and such is in line with what it should be. So I'm out of pump I feel.
But could also be the pump going. I'll have to pull it and see what it looks like ...
 

·
C2H5OH
Joined
·
11,867 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I just can't convince myself that I'm out of pump, even though everything says I am. LOL


But to educate others to know how I know,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4sorVY7Ysh4UHFNSjFBTlo1Xzg/edit?usp=sharing

Download that Excel spreadsheet.

I built it from the data Kenny Bell put together based on the SVT fuel pump --> http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/BAPtheory_kens.pdf‎ (page 6 is where the data is)

Here is a pic of my log data worked over,



You can see that Duty Cycle is very near 100%. This will reduce pump life. And it's just all around unsafe.


There are 4 ways to reduce duty cycle.
1. reduce pressure
2. increase voltage, Boost-A-Pump or fixed voltage to the pump through the FPDM (which is possible in a tune)
3. reduce Air/Fuel ratio, go from 11:1 to 12:1
4. increase the flow of the pump, larger pump
 

·
FF Affiliate
Joined
·
31,095 Posts
I have made an easy 250-280 HP to the wheels with the stock fuel pump , your NA so you have other issues

Whats your fuel psi dropping to ? NA all you need is 37psi to 41psi


Tom
 

·
C2H5OH
Joined
·
11,867 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Up to the point in that log, 5psi. But if I go to my limiter, 28psi ... and I can feel it loosing power after 7,500rpm ... which it didn't do prior to me changing a few things.

If I back figure from your numbers, being I'm using 9.7 for Stoich instead of 14.639,
9.7/14.639 = 0.66
0.66*250 to 280 = 165 to 184hp

So even that way says I'm probably at the physical limit of the pump.


I really don't want to drop from my 50psi. When I made that change the car just felt more responsive. I've actually wanted to try higher to see if it felt better or made no change.
I guess I'll have to back off pressure and see if DC follows suit. That should tell me W/O a doubt if I'm really at the limit or not.

Per or PM, far as I know I have made all the correct changes to the pump. I do get pressure dips/spikes from tip in and tip out and from what I understand that can be corrected by changing the Proportional and Integral, which I haven't touched yet. But neither have an effect on actual pressure.
Basically, pressure, flow and voltage are acting correct IMO. I'm just at the limit.

Tune file --> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4sorVY7Ysh4ZUtQNk9wYlNpdW8/edit?usp=sharing
 

·
FF Affiliate
Joined
·
31,095 Posts
I take it your fuel filter and the sock on your fuel pump is good and clean ? I would also want to confirm that the pump is the updates pump

Even tho your running Eth you system should hold a lot more , that graph is hard for me to read a xcal datalog would show me more

You need to be careful on some of the pump changes , as the fuel psi drops your injector duty cycle comes up automatically or should to maintain a given amount of fuel and these are in the returnless settings

Tom
 

·
C2H5OH
Joined
·
11,867 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Filters are good. I check them fairly often, I'm due to check again (once a year).

I did see the relationship between PW and pressure, and it makes perfect sense. As do Voltage, DC and Flow.

I guess as far as I can see right now, either a BAP or bigger pump is in my future.

... and you hate my long datalogs or I'd share that too. I'm too lazy to cut it down.
 

·
C2H5OH
Joined
·
11,867 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Same thing but with 40psi:




Does feel like the RPM is there, just not as strong as it used to be.
Near redline pressure starts to break up. It doesn't look like anything with the pump is off.
The one thing I am seeing is my battery voltage is above 15 Volts and that looks like it correlates to pressure breaking up. I'm not sure what's going on there. I have is set to 14.1 at all times, no WOT disable. Not sure if it just hates the RPM and the regulator can't keep up?
Something new to look into.

But I will say that 50psi feels like it has a stronger midrange than 40, enough that it's noticeable.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top