[pasta]

just so everyone knows yea electric good on gas ha ha but when the batteries need replacing will cost more than the cars worth something to think about

 

[mikebontoft]

its a lot more than that too.. notice they say zero "tailpipe emissions"

like i said before it takes about 3 times as much coal to produce the power needed to go the same distance as a regular car.

also I just wrote this in the other thread but the manufacturing process for the battery is spread all over the world and using a lot of energy to make a different type of energy.

bottom line, looks better up front but worse for the environment... savings is negligible. I could see it being worth it as a city only car in which one could plug into a wall socket and use a company's power source, but once again that will put quite a bit of strain on the battery and wear it out faster.

 

[whynotthinkwhynot]

Whether or not coal is what produces the power at your home receptacle depends on where you live. When MT did a story on the Prius vs Volt vs Leaf, they provided information about the overall emissions impact and which would be cheaper in a given area by state.

 

[pasta]

i will stick with gas also you can only go so far so what good are they

 

[Blackcatn2o]

you also for got how bad the lead in the batteries is for the environment.


You could do less damage to the environment if you drove a dodge Viper with a 8.3 V10.

 

[whynotthinkwhynot]

Newsflash: Nobody uses lead acid batteries in hybrids, plug-in hybrids, or EVs. A lead acid battery pack that provided something like the Leaf's 24 kw/hr battery would weigh more than the car. Most hybrids currently use NiMH batteries which is the same battery chemistry as your typical AA rechargeable. There are environmental concerns with this battery chemistry. The only battery chemistry that doesn't have environmental concerns is NiZn, but those have their issues like voltage loss and internal crystallization known as dendrites. Li-Ion batteries hold promise due to their ability to handle being nearly drained between charges, but have lower number of recharges and are much more expensive. This is the current conundrum keeping electric cars from taking place of gasoline engines. Once the price of battery packs comes down to where EVs or series hybrids like the Volt are comparable in price to gasoline engines, then we'll see more of them on the road.

I think Ford is wasting their time with the Focus electric and would be wiser to wait and see how much luck Nissan has with the Leaf. Following GM's lead might be a better idea.

One thing I hate is how all hybrids and EVs use CVTs instead of normal transmissions. I understand that large electric motors have tremendous torque (Volt=149 hp/273 ft/lbs), but still there should be a way to protect the transmission- even if it's as simple as cutting power to the motor during a shift to prevent jarring the gears.

 

[MacAttack]

Those batteries will need to be replaced eventually, and that's not cheap. And unlike a normal car, when you run out of juice, you're SOL. Find a place to charge, and wait for hours. Run out of gas? Walk to the nearest station, fill up a gas can, and walk back. And refueling just takes just a few minutes.

Electric cars definitely aren't smart right now, at least not for everyone. Maybe in a few years.
I feel like Ford will sell less of these than they would have sold a new Focus wagon or the old Euro ST or RS. But I think this is more for publicity than a profit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[whynotthinkwhynot]

The technology is above your knowledge. I do a lot of research on this stuff. LiFePO4 batteries, for example, have a life cycle of 3000 charges. If you charge once per day for your ride to work, then that's over 8 years of life. Those are the lowest cost highest energy density batteries that an EV hobbyist could get their hands on. Li-Ion batteries like in the Volt or Tesla have a life span of 5000 charges which is more like 13 years. Now if you were using lead acid batteries which could weigh the car down excessively, then you're looking at replacing these yearly. Consumers can't purchase NiMh batteries like the manufacturers currently use in hybrids, but according to what I've read those have life spans of over 15k charge cycles.

I've owned a lot of cars, but never owned one for 10 years. If I was to invest in building a hobby EV, then yes, I'd have to keep it for 10 years because that's about how long it would take me to reclaim my investment. That's why I'm not doing it.

More radical technology is being developed, but we likely won't see it for a few more years. It's carbon nanotube batteries that can be made using paper, and promise high energy density as well as a 30k charge cycle life. We'll see what happens, but one day the naysayers will be like all the guys in the 80's who swore they'd never drive an EFI vehicle and ripped TBI and TPI systems off their Chevys and Fords to replace them with carburetors.

What's going to really suck is what nobody is bitching about. Currently if you owned an EV you could drive to work exhausting your 100 mile charge in the Leaf or FocusE, and recharging it for a maximum of $3.15 during the most expensive time of day for electricity in CA- home of high energy costs. It's not difficult to see that it's about half the cost of gasoline. Where I live, the same EV would cost me $.56 per day. Eventually, when electric cars become more commonplace and less expensive to purchase- we'll see energy costs skyrocket. If they don't screw you one way, they will screw you another. Right now all the big wigs in Washington are wondering why the economy isn't taking off- well geniuses, maybe $6 gallons of milk don't hurt your family's budget, but they sure hurt mine. So does freaking doubling my fuel costs per month. All that while our employers are bellyaching and begging us to take pay cuts for the good of the company. Even if China stopped buying oil today and costs went down to $1.50/gal, there's no way our retail stores would suddenly drop the prices on goods that have been jacked up due to transportation costs. I've seen this crap happen before in my lifetime, so you kids pay attention. One day you'll be telling the next generation of naysayers "I remember when I could recharge my car for $1 a day instead of $100, and we could afford to live one family to a home."

 

[voip-ninja]

Those batteries will need to be replaced eventually, and that's not cheap. And unlike a normal car, when you run out of juice, you're SOL. Find a place to charge, and wait for hours. Run out of gas? Walk to the nearest station, fill up a gas can, and walk back. And refueling just takes just a few minutes.

Electric cars definitely aren't smart right now, at least not for everyone. Maybe in a few years.
I feel like Ford will sell less of these than they would have sold a new Focus wagon or the old Euro ST or RS. But I think this is more for publicity than a profit.


Sent from my iPhone using FF Mobile

I think that you are off target with some of the criticism. Yes, the batteries will eventually need replacement, and they will lose efficiency over time, but we are talking about the batteries going down to maybe 75% useable charge after something like 10 years and 150K+ miles. Do you really think that purchasing a refurbished battery pack for one of these cars in 7-10 years is going to cost the same $15-$20K that it costs today? That is highly unlikely. All of the cost comparisons show that over a 10 year run EVs will cost far, FAR less to operate than even a relatively inexpensive ICE vehicle. The only way the cost of the EV will be higher is if the battery pack is totally destroyed, needs full replacement, and costs as much down the road as it does right now, all of which are, as indicated, highly unlikely scenarios.

What is also unlikely is that someone purchasing an electric will be using it as their primary vehicle if they do a lot of longer distance driving. Most families have multiple vehicles, which leaves the EV in a great spot for providing extremely low maintenance and low cost driving as a commuter or secondary vehicle.

Studies have also shown that even with commuting and running errands, the average American driver puts less than 50 miles a day on a car. That is a range that is totally achievable for today's technology. Americans have the idea in their head that they need a car that has enough range to drive to California every day, even though they probably make a trip like that once a year, if ever.

For families with multiple vehicles, they would use the electric for the high mileage local stuff, and they would use their ICE vehicle for long distance trips.

For those who buy an EV as their single car, because they live in an urban area and don't do a lot of long distance driving, they would likely rent an ICE for the few times a year when they need to drive substantially further than the range of the EV.

It's also worth noting that the "charging for hours and hours" thing is also a bit of a myth. Even with the Leaf, with the average daily drive of 25-40 miles, the typical driver would only need to charge it at home for 3-4 hours on 220V to fully charge it. If charging with the 480V rapid charger at some place like a grocery store, the car can be charged from 0% to 100% in 30 minutes which makes it completely practical for driving to a commuter station, grocery store, etc, and having plenty of time to top the battery off while shopping for a few minutes or hopping aboard local transit.

I'm not going to try to convince anyone that EV is "better" than gas (even though it is better in some areas such as pollution... far easier to control the emissions of 1000 electric power plants than millions of individual vehicles)... gas has more energy density per gallon than anything else, which is why we use it.

However, there's no getting around the fact that even if we see a reprieve in gas prices in the short term, they are going to continue going up in the long term, no matter what we do. China and India will pick up the slack in any reduced consumption or increased production we provide. Not to mention that the Arab world does not have the fortitude to go back to $30 a barrel oil. Any increased domestic production will be offset by reduced production overseas.

So, gas is getting more expensive, and every year there is a little less of it. Will we hit "peak" oil production this decade? Next decade? Next century? It matters little, because, climate issues, massive global energy demand and other factors totally out of our control are going to drive the shift away from pure gas vehicles.

I expect that this will happen faster than most people realize. In as little as 7-10 years I expect fully 1/2 of all new vehicles sold to be electrified in some fashion whether it is plug-in hybrid technology, etc.

For those that feel that their choices are being taken away, they aren't. Gas burners will likely be available for decades to come, for those who want no compromise range and performance. Just don't cry to the rest of us when gas hits $5 or $10 a gallon down the road and we are powering our "go-karts" with solar energy.

 

[MacAttack]

The technology is above your knowledge. I do a lot of research on this stuff. LiFePO4 batteries, for example, have a life cycle of 3000 charges. If you charge once per day for your ride to work, then that's over 8 years of life. Those are the lowest cost highest energy density batteries that an EV hobbyist could get their hands on. Li-Ion batteries like in the Volt or Tesla have a life span of 5000 charges which is more like 13 years. Now if you were using lead acid batteries which could weigh the car down excessively, then you're looking at replacing these yearly. Consumers can't purchase NiMh batteries like the manufacturers currently use in hybrids, but according to what I've read those have life spans of over 15k charge cycles.

You'd start to see a degradation of capacity pretty quickly. Even if it's only a mile or two for the first year. These are essentially laptop batteries, and I've seen them drop to 75% efficiency in 3 years.

I've owned a lot of cars, but never owned one for 10 years. If I was to invest in building a hobby EV, then yes, I'd have to keep it for 10 years because that's about how long it would take me to reclaim my investment. That's why I'm not doing it.

That may be true, but try selling an EV after 8 years, and the battery has 65% capacity.

More radical technology is being developed, but we likely won't see it for a few more years. It's carbon nanotube batteries that can be made using paper, and promise high energy density as well as a 30k charge cycle life. We'll see what happens, but one day the naysayers will be like all the guys in the 80's who swore they'd never drive an EFI vehicle and ripped TBI and TPI systems off their Chevys and Fords to replace them with carburetors.

That's another issue, what if your car is obsolete next year, and the new battery tech is either expensive to add on, or incompatible completely? It would be like having the original iPod, and the iPod Touch came out a year later.

What's going to really suck is what nobody is bitching about. Currently if you owned an EV you could drive to work exhausting your 100 mile charge in the Leaf or FocusE, and recharging it for a maximum of $3.15 during the most expensive time of day for electricity in CA- home of high energy costs. It's not difficult to see that it's about half the cost of gasoline. Where I live, the same EV would cost me $.56 per day. Eventually, when electric cars become more commonplace and less expensive to purchase- we'll see energy costs skyrocket. If they don't screw you one way, they will screw you another. Right now all the big wigs in Washington are wondering why the economy isn't taking off- well geniuses, maybe $6 gallons of milk don't hurt your family's budget, but they sure hurt mine. So does freaking doubling my fuel costs per month. All that while our employers are bellyaching and begging us to take pay cuts for the good of the company. Even if China stopped buying oil today and costs went down to $1.50/gal, there's no way our retail stores would suddenly drop the prices on goods that have been jacked up due to transportation costs. I've seen this crap happen before in my lifetime, so you kids pay attention. One day you'll be telling the next generation of naysayers "I remember when I could recharge my car for $1 a day instead of $100, and we could afford to live one family to a home."

Something I hadn't thought of. The idea is that with more renewable sources of electricity, prices would be able to stay the same. But these corporations are going to want to get their money from somewhere.

I think that you are off target with some of the criticism. Yes, the batteries will eventually need replacement, and they will lose efficiency over time, but we are talking about the batteries going down to maybe 75% useable charge after something like 10 years and 150K+ miles. Do you really think that purchasing a refurbished battery pack for one of these cars in 7-10 years is going to cost the same $15-$20K that it costs today? That is highly unlikely.

It's also unlikely that the same tech will be available or compatible in a few years.

All of the cost comparisons show that over a 10 year run EVs will cost far, FAR less to operate than even a relatively inexpensive ICE vehicle. The only way the cost of the EV will be higher is if the battery pack is totally destroyed, needs full replacement, and costs as much down the road as it does right now, all of which are, as indicated, highly unlikely scenarios.

What is also unlikely is that someone purchasing an electric will be using it as their primary vehicle if they do a lot of longer distance driving. Most families have multiple vehicles, which leaves the EV in a great spot for providing extremely low maintenance and low cost driving as a commuter or secondary vehicle.

Studies have also shown that even with commuting and running errands, the average American driver puts less than 50 miles a day on a car. That is a range that is totally achievable for today's technology. Americans have the idea in their head that they need a car that has enough range to drive to California every day, even though they probably make a trip like that once a year, if ever.

For families with multiple vehicles, they would use the electric for the high mileage local stuff, and they would use their ICE vehicle for long distance trips.

For those who buy an EV as their single car, because they live in an urban area and don't do a lot of long distance driving, they would likely rent an ICE for the few times a year when they need to drive substantially further than the range of the EV.

It's also worth noting that the "charging for hours and hours" thing is also a bit of a myth. Even with the Leaf, with the average daily drive of 25-40 miles, the typical driver would only need to charge it at home for 3-4 hours on 220V to fully charge it. If charging with the 480V rapid charger at some place like a grocery store, the car can be charged from 0% to 100% in 30 minutes which makes it completely practical for driving to a commuter station, grocery store, etc, and having plenty of time to top the battery off while shopping for a few minutes or hopping aboard local transit.

I'm not going to try to convince anyone that EV is "better" than gas (even though it is better in some areas such as pollution... far easier to control the emissions of 1000 electric power plants than millions of individual vehicles)... gas has more energy density per gallon than anything else, which is why we use it.

However, there's no getting around the fact that even if we see a reprieve in gas prices in the short term, they are going to continue going up in the long term, no matter what we do. China and India will pick up the slack in any reduced consumption or increased production we provide. Not to mention that the Arab world does not have the fortitude to go back to $30 a barrel oil. Any increased domestic production will be offset by reduced production overseas.

So, gas is getting more expensive, and every year there is a little less of it. Will we hit "peak" oil production this decade? Next decade? Next century? It matters little, because, climate issues, massive global energy demand and other factors totally out of our control are going to drive the shift away from pure gas vehicles.

I expect that this will happen faster than most people realize. In as little as 7-10 years I expect fully 1/2 of all new vehicles sold to be electrified in some fashion whether it is plug-in hybrid technology, etc.

For those that feel that their choices are being taken away, they aren't. Gas burners will likely be available for decades to come, for those who want no compromise range and performance. Just don't cry to the rest of us when gas hits $5 or $10 a gallon down the road and we are powering our "go-karts" with solar energy.

I can agree that electric or hydrogen cars are the future, but I don't think the technology is ready just yet. I travel less than 50 miles a day every day, but, I occasionally take 100+ mile road trips on the weekend. I certainly can't afford two cars, and recharging from 0 would take all night. Plus, if you run out of gas, you can walk to the station. If you run out of juice, you have to call a tow truck.

I'm sure electric cars are the future, but I'll keep my ICE for now. Maybe 10 years from now, I'll be buying my first electric car.

 

[voip-ninja]

As indicated in my original post in this thread, I don't think that EVs are for everyone, just that they would probably work for more people than some in this thread indicate.

It is worth noting that when the Prius came out the strongest criticism were for "battery replacement costs" and it would drive the total cost of ownership to the point that the technology would cost more than it saved in fuel.

This has proven out to be a bogus argument. Reconditioned Prius replacement batteries are relatively inexpensive and the batteries typically don't need replacement even after 10 years and 200K miles (CR did a test of a 2002 Prius with 200K miles on the clock and compared it to one they had tested new in 2001 and the results were largely similar).

So, yes, the EV batteries will degrade over time, but probably not quite as quickly as you predict. Nissan has said to anticipate a loss of 3-5% efficiency per year, which means that it will be far better than 65% after 10 years in all likelihood (remember that the loss is residual, not compounding).

Also, just as the Prius has a large following and can be converted and retrofitted to full electric, with larger after-market batteries installed, I would fully anticipate that these 1st generation EVs will have devoted enthusiasts for a decade or longer, with the ability to retrofit them with newer battery, etch, etc. With an EV, the only parts that should need servicing or replacement are the consumables (tires, wiper blades, brake pads) and suspension components. The rest of the car should more or less "last forever" barring structural deficiencies over time, electrics failing, etc. If you just take "routine" maintenance out of the equation, you probably save something like $5K or more over 10 years with an EV vs. an ICE vehicle and obviously that does not factor in the fuel savings... which if you are driving 1K miles a month and live in an area with .10/kWh electricity would be almost $1000 a year.

What I would really like to see, personally, is an EV that is sold sans battery, and then the battery pack is leased for a 3 or 5 year period of time. Then, at the end of the lease, the battery can be replaced with a new leased battery. If a $20K battery loses 20% of it's value over a 3-5 year period of time, the lease cost would be very affordable, and the vehicle, without battery could be sold at a very affordable price. The manufacturers could even profit from the battery lease business. Win Win for everyone.

 

[iroc34]

Yup, my wife and I own a First Gen. 2003, Prius. It now has
158,xxx miles on it. The only problem this car has had was the electric power steering rack went out right after the 3 year 36,000 mile warranty was up. That was a $1200.00 oops. The engine , CVT trans and Hybrid system have been trouble free. The 12v system has gone through 3 batteries, until I modded it to fit a full size battery in the trunk. There is a company in North Carolina. They sell a new update Li ion battery pack for $1800 installed, they take the original out and use the trey for the upgrade. Not to shabby. We gave the car to our daughter who is now in college . She continues on. Next summer we are gonna take a road trip in it to N. C for the swap. I would buy a Leaf , but I can also plug it int work. Oh and we replaced the Prius with a new Hyundai Sonata Hybrid. I wanted the Ford Fusion Hybrid. But its the Wifes car. And the Sonata uses a regular transmission. I still can't get used to the CVT. The technology is getting there. But 50k for a Volt was out of the question. How about the Tesla. Nice.

 

[MacAttack]

An interesting point on electric cars in emergencies from AutoBlog.
Basically, if a hurricane is on the way, you can stock up on gas, or even just go to the closest station and fill up. But, if your car didn't finish it's charge because the power went out in the middle of the night, and a hurricane is quickly approaching, you're shit out of luck.

 

[voip-ninja]

An interesting point on electric cars in emergencies from AutoBlog.
Basically, if a hurricane is on the way, you can stock up on gas, or even just go to the closest station and fill up. But, if your car didn't finish it's charge because the power went out in the middle of the night, and a hurricane is quickly approaching, you're shit out of luck.

Or, you could just get a 220V generator and some propane and charge it all you like after a hurricane, along with running your emergency power.

I like the arguments (they are sort of amusing), but someone else hit this on the head. 100 years ago people had the same arguments about giving up their horses for autos. Why stop at hurricanes? If there is a zombie apocalypse, an electric car will be worthless without a way to reliably charge it, where-as you could use your gas burner to escape and/or mow-down the zombie hordes, and simply pilfer stale gas from filling stations for decades while you are running from the C.H.U.D.S.

At the end of the day, what we are seeing is FEAR. Fear of a changing world in which you might actually see a non gas powered vehicle on the road as something other than a complete oddity. Fear of less choice in picking the car you want that wastes as much fuel as you like depending on your own personal preference. Personally these fears appear foolish to me. Gas vehicles will still be the dominant ones sold for decades to come, regardless of the efforts of Ford, Nissan or the Federalis. What will drive electric vehicles to eventual dominance are simple economics. A.k.a, continually increasing gas prices over time, more and more apparent signs that global warming isn't a "hoax" and will affect us in real ways, etc.

 

[MacAttack]

At the end of the day, what we are seeing is FEAR. Fear of a changing world in which you might actually see a non gas powered vehicle on the road as something other than a complete oddity. Fear of less choice in picking the car you want that wastes as much fuel as you like depending on your own personal preference. Personally these fears appear foolish to me. Gas vehicles will still be the dominant ones sold for decades to come, regardless of the efforts of Ford, Nissan or the Federalis. What will drive electric vehicles to eventual dominance are simple economics. A.k.a, continually increasing gas prices over time, more and more apparent signs that global warming isn't a "hoax" and will affect us in real ways, etc.

Actually, I'm a big fan of electric cars, especially the ones that don't look horrible, like the Tesla Roadster. But the technology has a long way to go before it's really ready for everyone.

 

[voip-ninja]

I think the technology is closer to "being there" for a larger number of Americans than you realize, but I completely respect your opinion.

I don't think we need electrics with 250-500 mile ranges and 2 minute battery swaps to sell millions of people on buying a car that will in all likelihood cost them less to own in the long run than an ICE vehicle.

I test drove the Nissan Leaf over the weekend (they had their drive event in Colorado) and I went in with very low expectations, yet was VERY impressed with what Nissan has put onto the market for a generation I vehicle. If someone drove an average of 30-50 miles a day (which many do) the Leaf would be just about perfect for a secondary car, or even the primary car of someone who lives in an urban area.

 

[MacAttack]

I think the technology is closer to "being there" for a larger number of Americans than you realize, but I completely respect your opinion.

I don't think we need electrics with 250-500 mile ranges and 2 minute battery swaps to sell millions of people on buying a car that will in all likelihood cost them less to own in the long run than an ICE vehicle.

I test drove the Nissan Leaf over the weekend (they had their drive event in Colorado) and I went in with very low expectations, yet was VERY impressed with what Nissan has put onto the market for a generation I vehicle. If someone drove an average of 30-50 miles a day (which many do) the Leaf would be just about perfect for a secondary car, or even the primary car of someone who lives in an urban area.

Until batteries can last more than 100 miles, the cars can be larger (and not look goofy), they can accelerate to highway speeds quickly, and quick charging stations are almost as popular as gas stations, then we're not there. Until you can completely replace an ICE vehicle with an EV, we're not ready for them. People can't always afford to have two cars. I'll admit, for some, the current electric cars are fine. But for everyone, we're far from being able to replace gas powered cars with electric.

 

[voip-ninja]

You make some valid points, but some of your points aren't really valid.

Obviously range and range anxiety is the #1 challenge to electric vehicles, which is precisely why GM went with a gasoline charging strategy for their Volt. I'm not going to debate that range is a huge issue facing pure electrics, as it is currently preventing me from getting one (my round trip commute is about 80 miles).

However, the other points you are making are invalid. Beauty is obviously in the eye of the beholder, but considering that the Focus Electric will look just like the gas Focus other than a different grill, it is foolish to say that EVs are "ugly". Maybe you don't like the looks of the Leaf, but to me, it looks similar to other econoboxes.

Similarly, you are way off target when talking about acceleration and performance. If you had test driven the Leaf, as I did, you would have found out that it has 250 ft/lbs of torque and can accelerate to 60mph in under 10 seconds, which is on par with any other economy car (actually better than many). I was actually very surprised by just how fast the little car was when it was not locked into "econ" mode (by default it is not in economy). It is more than quick enough for anyone looking for something for casual driving. I actually got it up to over 60mph on the 2.0 mile test loop around a local mall (devoid of traffic) and hammered it into a roundabout and have absolutely no complaints about the performance... and that's coming from someone driving an Audi A4 that goes 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds.

The 600+ lb battery sitting in the bottom middle of the vehicle results in a LOT of grip and good handling.

I understand where you are coming from with your criticism, but you are not like most people who are critical of electrics. Most people who are critical of electrics are either extremely ignorant of the technology, or they are frightened that someone is going to try to take their gasoline burning car away. I've actually talked to non-stupid people who think that the government is going to try to outlaw gas burners soon. Simply ridiculous.

 

[stadtsoldat]

I test drove the Nissan Leaf over the weekend (they had their drive event in Colorado) and I went in with very low expectations, yet was VERY impressed with what Nissan has put onto the market for a generation I vehicle. If someone drove an average of 30-50 miles a day (which many do) the Leaf would be just about perfect for a secondary car, or even the primary car of someone who lives in an urban area.

I was there, too, and also walked away very impressed!

As for other arguments - if you're THAT worried about a hurricane, you can buy a Volt. I'm not too concerned. Same with the zombie apocalypse. I do, however, think that most EVs are going to be second cars for the time being.

I could do fine with a Leaf. My issues are (1) I can't afford it and (2) I rent, so no plug-in.

But someday.

 

[whynotthinkwhynot]

Eh, I'm actually more interested in building my own, but can't currently finance it. If I did start a savings account specifically for it, I'd probably spend it on something else before I completed saving.

For the DIY EV enthusiast, there are battery options that are lighter weight and have acceptable charge lives. LiFePO4 batteries, for example, are cheaper than Li-Ion, but only offer 2k (5.5 yrs at 1 charge per day) charge cycles. This is much better than lead acid, and the big bonus is that a 24kwh battery pack of 45 batteries producing a tire smoking 166v would only weigh about 400 lbs. That's about the same as the Leaf's $18k Li-Ion battery at 1/3 the cost with 1/2 the battery life. I did a lot of calculations, and although it would be fun for a hobby, it's still not economical. The battery cost is less than fuel, but something is bound to break in a DIY car over a 5 year life. The cost of recharging would have to be factored in on the total cost of ownership, but I would expect it to be about 1/10th of the cost of gasoline in my area. That would mean a mere $200/yr for my work travel.

Still, it would take 10 years to be cheaper than what I drive now. The tech might be coming, but it's not here yet. The promises of carbon nanotube tech seem high, but even half the claim of 30k cycles and 1/10th the cost of Li-Ion would be cause to start investing in a DIY car. There are several manufacturers out there that are working on EV specific motors. One in particular combines squirrel cage and permanent magnet motors in one package, another offers 200 hp with 350 lb/ft, and finally smaller EV motors have dual shafts so you can run an alternator for your 12v accessory batteries. I'd personally like to see more dual shaft motors. I've also been doing a lot of research (I am a master elect) into 400hz generators like what must be being used in the Volt. Suitable supplemental generators might be easily found in airplane scrap yards as jets and planes use 400hz generators. 60hz generators are too heavy and large to be useful for extending range. I'm sure the DIY market will start seeing things like that eventually, but not as large as the Volts 54 kw.

If Ford builds an all electric Focus like they claim- that is such a mistake. Something built like the Volt is more likely to be in the neighborhood of what Americans will want out of an electric car now. Either that or wait for better battery tech.