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#dailydriven
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^^^^I mistakenly dynoed in 3rd gear...4th gear is 1:1....hp should have been slightly higher and torque slightly lower or thats how they explained it to me
That's interesting. i'm pretty sure i dyno'd in 3rd gear when i did mine. i'll have to ask them to do it in 4th gear when i get on the dyno next.

Also dct has some conversion losses....5spd should have 4 to 5 more hp
Yeah i figured that much. just thought it was weird you had so much more TQ.
 

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#dailydriven
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Does it feel like you gained 20hp??
I honestly could only tell the difference on WOT or just in the higher RPM's. I dont get on my car very often and just driving around town both manifolds felt the same. now that i have the the stock manifold on, you can definitely tell it was losing power up top. no doubt.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
All the runs we did were in 3rd gear

I tested the Cosi knock off I made that was on the MK3 Focus annd it make the exact same HP/TQ +/- that the TTR made which I found interesting

I wont be reinstalling it on the Turbo MK3

Cams will not help the manifold to work better

Tom
 

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#dailydriven
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6,103 Posts
All the runs we did were in 3rd gear

I tested the Cosi knock off I made that was on the MK3 Focus annd it make the exact same HP/TQ +/- that the TTR made which I found interesting

I wont be reinstalling it on the Turbo MK3

Cams will not help the manifold to work better

Tom
So i plan on getting my car on the dyno here in the next week or two. I have a DCT. I know the last time i was on a dyno they did a 3rd gear pull, should i ask them to do a 4th gear pull this time?
 

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So i plan on getting my car on the dyno here in the next week or two. I have a DCT. I know the last time i was on a dyno they did a 3rd gear pull, should i ask them to do a 4th gear pull this time?


I wouldn't. Just so you could accurately compare it to your other dyno run(s)


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Torretto!
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^^^^ yeah I'd keep it the same for comparison sakes, unless you don't care and use that as a baseline to compare against future mods....only other problem with not being 1:1 is if you make power the numbers get skewed wrongly even more.
 

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#dailydriven
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are we 100% that 4th gear is 1:1? is it different with the 5spd? because Tom did all the dyno runs last weekend in 3rd gear. I'm not so much worried about having a baseline dyno as i doubt i'll add any more power adders, but i do want to have accurate power number for what i'm making.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Are you wanting a good base line dyno or bragging rights so you can beat on your chest and tell everyone one how much you have , if you do then I can lean it out a little and the # will show higher

But why beat on your engine for that , it isnt worth it let the other guy do that it just doesnt make sense , you say yours runs good , pulls hard your happy , whats 2-4hp more going to really do other then abuse your engine ... and for what ?

Tom
 

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Old Phart
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I tested the Cosi knock off I made that was on the MK3 Focus annd it make the exact same HP/TQ +/- that the TTR made which I found interesting
This is interesting, for whatever reason this engine isn't responding to a short runner manifold even at RPM where you might think it would.
 

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3rd Time's the Charm
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When I had my stock dyno run, back to back to back, the first pull was 4th gear, and it ran into the speed limiter. Second and third runs, we pulled in 3rd gear. Both runs gave slight, but definite improvements on the entire graph for 4th gear. Could have been from slight temperature changes, make whatever guess you want.

At any rate, the difference in numbers because of being one gear off 1:1 in most cars is not major, and in my case exactly opposite of the expected results. Don't let that 1:1 rule get into your head as an absolute necessity.

 

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#dailydriven
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6,103 Posts
Are you wanting a good base line dyno or bragging rights so you can beat on your chest and tell everyone one how much you have , if you do then I can lean it out a little and the # will show higher

But why beat on your engine for that , it isnt worth it let the other guy do that it just doesnt make sense , you say yours runs good , pulls hard your happy , whats 2-4hp more going to really do other then abuse your engine ... and for what ?

Tom
No bragging rights lol. I just am done with power adders so I wanted to see what my car is making now. I don't want to lean it out or anything. Just want to know what's is making on a daily basis. Or roughly anyway, I know things change all the time.

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When I had my stock dyno run, back to back to back, the first pull was 4th gear, and it ran into the speed limiter. Second and third runs, we pulled in 3rd gear. Both runs gave slight, but definite improvements on the entire graph for 4th gear. Could have been from slight temperature changes, make whatever guess you want.

At any rate, the difference in numbers because of being one gear off 1:1 in most cars is not major, and in my case exactly opposite of the expected results. Don't let that 1:1 rule get into your head as an absolute necessity.

Those seem like pretty impressive stock numbers. If that's the case, it seems to be more like a 170hp motor with a 15% drivetrain loss = 145whp. or 185hp @15% loss = 157whp.
 

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3rd Time's the Charm
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Those seem like pretty impressive stock numbers. If that's the case, it seems to be more like a 170hp motor with a 15% drivetrain loss = 145whp. or 185hp @15% loss = 157whp.
She runs nice, for sure. I need to take it back to the same dyno for an after tune/intake check, but I need to get Tom to check the tune and add the 180* thermostat fan changes, as well as raise the rev limiter a touch, and speed limiter.

The only "mod" for this graph was 93 octane gas, and MS3 exhaust that necks down to the stock manifold, so zero gain there except noise.
 

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I noticed that the larger throttle body saw no gains on the Dyno run. So is there any reason why I would still want to install this part? I know people are saying they feel improved throttle response. Does the Dyno no show this? I'm new to the tuning world so just trying to figure out what makes sense as far as upgrades go.

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3rd Time's the Charm
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I noticed that the larger throttle body saw no gains on the Dyno run. So is there any reason why I would still want to install this part? I know people are saying they feel improved throttle response. Does the Dyno no show this? I'm new to the tuning world so just trying to figure out what makes sense as far as upgrades go.

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Throttle response and actual power are two different things.

Throttle response can be defined as how well the car reacts to partial throttle input, and this is logical, as the larger throttle body will have a larger volume of air passing through when at similar throttle positions as the smaller throttle body. No big discovery there. This can be mimicked by the smaller throttle body by simply accelerating the throttle opening on pedal input request. That's trickery to make a car's engine feel more powerful than it actually is that every foreign car I've ever driven using throttle by wire has used for a decade. Push the car 25% throttle and it takes off like it's really powerful, when it's actually opening the throttle 50% or better, and the last 75% input from the pedal feels like it does nothing. Seat of the pants trickery to fool the masses of people who think their Nissan Sentra is fast.

Actual max power difference only comes in to play at WOT, and would show if there is any bottlenecking in airflow at the throttlebody. From the dyno results, this can honestly be answered that the intake manifold design and throttle body itself are NOT airflow bottlenecks.

My bet for the NA engine's bottleneck is in exhaust flow characteristics, whether that be the stock manifold, which we know is terrible, or even back to head design, though Tom has said the intake and exhaust ports should support massive power. Maybe we're reaching limitations of the cam specs on a 2 liter motor that only revs to 7k before falling off. The whole limitation could be the entire system as it's designed and not just one key factor here and there as upgrades come.
 

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If you look at the head flow graphs from any of the duratec based motors you will see that the mk3 NA head is the highest flowing out of any of them so its the no the head that is choking power. I still feel that the intake manifold can be improved despite what happened with the ttr and cossie manifolds. Whether the headers we have are a bottle neck has yet to be seen. I know Tom, Mike, and Esslinger think so because they should be coming out with their own versions.
 

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Torretto!
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Tom, I know you saw the cosworth knockoff had the exact same loss on the mk3, despite having a much smaller and different shaped plenum and even slightly longer ports...why are you taking it off, because either design may actually work much better on a FI motor..the TTR seems to be designed to work great under boost pressures, instead of vacuum in a NA application.
 

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#dailydriven
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If you look at the head flow graphs from any of the duratec based motors you will see that the mk3 NA head is the highest flowing out of any of them so its the no the head that is choking power. I still feel that the intake manifold can be improved despite what happened with the ttr and cossie manifolds. Whether the headers we have are a bottle neck has yet to be seen. I know Tom, Mike, and Esslinger think so because they should be coming out with their own versions.
Definitely interested to see if a well designed header can squeeze a few more hp out.

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Definitely interested to see if a well designed header can squeeze a few more hp out.

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For sure a better exhaust header would do wonders. So far we have Ebay and OBX headers and they both have made decent gains without much engineering. If a good company like Esslinger can engineer an exhaust header with their experience and equipment then I'm sure we are going to get some great gains.

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I noticed that the larger throttle body saw no gains on the Dyno run. So is there any reason why I would still want to install this part? I know people are saying they feel improved throttle response. Does the Dyno no show this? I'm new to the tuning world so just trying to figure out what makes sense as far as upgrades go.

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Danny BUY IT! lol. I'm not kidding nor am I exaggerating, the TB made my throttle lag completely dissappear. I no longer have to floor the pedal to fly through a crowded intersection. I have to regulate the pedal less which has miraculously done away with the random shifting of the DCT. No HP/TQ gains but improved drivability. :)

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