[danfinken]

I removed the crankshaft sensor to clean it...i want to place it back but i understand it needs adjustment now. is this necessary?

 

[Marde]

Someone else will need to reply and better help you. I wanted to post here because your question ties into something I am unsure about and have questions myself.

I remember an old thread where someone had problems after removing the crankshaft sensor (CKP). They warned about the mistake they made by not using a special alignment tool prior to removing/replacing the CKP.

The thread and quote below is NOT the thread I remember, but it does make mention of what I am remembering;

Based on your question, I assume you are referring to "ignition timing" since "cam timing" would be done during the rebuild.

Since the duratec motor does not use a distributor, there really is no ignition timing settings. BUT the computer uses the crankshaft position sensor (CKP) to determine top dead center etc to control timing.

The CKP IS ADJUSTABLE on the duratec, but it's not intended to be used to make timing adjustment, it just needs to be "zeroed" for accuracy taking away all the variations in mfg tolerances etc.

To do this you need a little plastic alignment tool that I have only seen sold with replacement CKP sensors from Ford. You also need a special bolt to place the engine at TDC, which can be purchased from Ford as a special tool or from places like CFM or FocusWerks etc, as part of the cam timing toolset.

Once the engine is set at TDC, the CKP alignment tool it fitted between the crank pulley and the CKP after loosening the CKP bolts, then with the tool in place to zero the CKP alignment to the pully/trigger wheel, the CKP bolts are then tightened and the tool removed.

Remove the bolt for TDC and you are done.

From there the PCM takes care of the ignition timing.

Quote above at; http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231027

According to my total guesses, the CKP is a magnetic pickup proximity sensor and you should be able to R&R it without any concern of setting up engine timing or using any special tools-> prior to removing the CKP. Why is it so much different than the magnetic pickup of the cam position sensor (CPS)? However, the quote above and my memories of that other lost thread that said "CAUTION: Do not remove the CKP" -seems to say otherwise.

You AND I both need someone with CKP experience to better explain the situation.

 

[Marde]

I found another old thread that mentions what I was talking about, please read this->
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=271969

I just went out and bought a Haynes manual for the 2000 to 2007 Ford Focus ,

And what I have read about the crankshaft position sensor, it is not to be removed from your vehicle at all. This sensor can only be used ONCE and for us that have the 2005's to 2007's-2.0L's you have to use the Timing Peg to find TDC which is Top Dead Center and your doing this for Cyclinder 1. Then the new sensor comes with the alignment tool (not sold separate) only comes with a new sensor .
So I made a major screw up when I removed mine to get to a tension pulley bolt to keep from messing the ckp sensor up.

 

[danfinken]

the position sensor has elongated holes for movement up and down. cant imagine this part could cause so much damage.

 

[danfinken]

if the crankshaft didnt move and i purchase a new sensor with alignment tool would i still need to place on TDC

 

[Marde]

if the crankshaft didnt move and i purchase a new sensor with alignment tool would i still need to place on TDC

Even tho I did not say it; THAT is my point. I do not understand why any timing set-up needs to be done if the CKP is a lonely magnetic pick-up.

One part that DOES makes sense is; re-positioning the CKP exactly like it was (or very close) AND setting the CKP to be the same depth as it was before; too close = it gets hit & damaged : too far away = might impact sensors ability to work properly.

 

[Marde]

Does the crank/engine block have a stain on it that can act as a positional guide of exactly where the CKP was sitting before you removed it?

 

[Marde]

Note to Self: Before removing CKP, clean surrounding area, then hit it with a little white spray paint to mark exact position of CKP before removing it.

 

[danfinken]

thats what I was looking for...indentations and couldnt find any. perhaps if I center the alignment it will be close enough to pick up and the computer will adjust the timing???

 

[danfinken]

I keep you informed of the results

 

[Marde]

thats what I was looking for...indentations and couldnt find any. perhaps if I center the alignment it will be close enough to pick up and the computer will adjust the timing???

I don't know. This subject pisses me off because there is something I do not understand. I understand the exact placement during an engine build, but I do not understand how a slight change in position would screw up the CKP & PCM's ability to pick-up the "key hole" in the crank/gear/wheel while it is spinning. If me, and stuck, yes, I would put it in the middle of the elongated holes.

The only thing critical in my mind is setting the depth properly. Maybe setting the depth is not even done? Never heard anyone talk about shimming it, so....?

I talked about setting "depth" because setting depth/gap is something I used to do on helicopter transmissions for a magnetic pick-up that translated into Rotor Speed. I would only change the depth on a new sensor if the old one got hit and damaged. That sensor did not have elongated holes on it, -that axis was non-adjustable.

 

[polygon]

I've checked a Haynes manual for the Euro version (1.4, 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 / 2005 - 2009) and it says the following -

"The inductive head of the CKP sensor runs just above the engine flywheel and scans a series of protrusions on the flywheel periphery. As the crankshaft rotates, the sensor transmits a pulse to the system's ignition module every time a protrusion passes it. There is one missing protrusion in the flywheel periphery at a point corresponding to 90 deg BTDC. The ignition module recognizes the absence of a pulse from the CKP sensor at this point to establish a reference mark for the crankshaft position. Similarly the time interval between absent pulses is used to determine engine speed"

Also according to the manual and for all models, no removal and refitting procedure involves retiming or any special tools and there is no mention of one time use either. There is 1 mounting bolt for the 1.4 / 1.6 (located near transmission) and 2 retaining bolts for the 1.8 / 2.0 (located near the crankshaft pulley).

Hope this helps.

 

[Marde]

^^Excellent. Thank you. This further confirms my suspicions of not needing any timing pins or whatever.

... and scans a series of protrusions on the flywheel periphery. As the crankshaft rotates, the sensor transmits a pulse to the system's ignition module every time a protrusion passes it. There is one missing protrusion in the flywheel periphery at a point corresponding to 90 deg BTDC. The ignition module recognizes the absence of a pulse from the CKP sensor at this point to establish a reference mark for the crankshaft position. Similarly the time interval between absent pulses is used to determine engine speed"

That "missing protrusion" is what I poorly described previously as a "key hole".

Until someone else comes along to better explain the older posts and the warnings... I see no reason to panic when replacing the CKP.

Note to Self: Before removing CKP, clean surrounding area, then hit it with a little white spray paint to mark exact position of CKP before removing it.

^^ why is this white paint not good enough?

 

[polygon]

Tippex correction fluid was always good enough for me - highly visible, water proof, oil proof, you name it.

Cheers

 

[Marde]

Note to Self: Before removing CKP, clean surrounding area, then hit it with a little white spray paint to mark exact position of CKP before removing it.

^^ why is this white paint not good enough?

And to further explain or question this CKP situation; If I remove the serp belt -and- remove my CKP -and- turn the engine/crank some; does this change anything or require me to do any engine timing pins and TDC a cylinder before I re-install the CKP? I say no & no problems are created when turning the engine some while the CKP is removed.

 

[felixthecat]

And to further explain or question this CKP situation; If I remove the serp belt -and- remove my CKP -and- turn the engine/crank some; does this change anything or require me to do any engine timing pins and TDC a cylinder before I re-install the CKP? I say no & no problems are created when turning the engine some while the CKP is removed.

Bingo^^^^^ your correct. It doesn't. It has a missing tooth out of 36.

 

[amc49]

Think matey................

If the sensor is a simple one that indexes in to not be able to move like quite a few then no issue. But if SLOTTED then it most likely needs a setting.

#1...........why on earth do you people take them off to begin with??? It is a simple metal proximity sensor and cleaning it does nothing at all. The slotting if present was your warning to not touch it.

The crank and cam sensor work TOGETHER, they indicate TDC and WHICH TDC since it can be one of two there. If the PCM doesn't care the sensor will simply plug into a hole, but if like maybe that engine and no index or woodruff key to locate damper, crank, and timing chain then it may well need good close setting. Don't set and you throw off the expected 'normal' timing difference from crank to cam sensor the PCM is looking for. That can't help. You also just faked out TDC to the PCM, it may not be right now. As well, say software provides for 30 degrees of timing adjustment and you are advanced by 5 degrees because not set right, now you have 35 total and either engine pings or knock sensor detunes engine unnecessarily. The other way or retarded would have the timing then overall too slow. Or pisspoor gas mileage and you wondering why.

Basic rule of cars, pretty much anything slotted needs adjusting. End of story.

I know nothing about that engine hardly at all but if I saw slotting there I would come to an immediate screeching halt with any work I planned on there until I fully knew how to set it. Thinking there may be a specialty tool for that.

The one tooth missing means nothing, you can have error all across the width of that one tooth. Enough I'd say to put holes in pistons from preignition knock if you were unlucky. The actual timing point works out usually to like one side or EDGE of a tooth, the PCM notes the gap and proceeds to use the next leader edge depending on how software is set up. A quarter inch wide gap as a timing point is a disaster to a PCM, it's only a marker.

 

[polygon]

To my mind, it doesn't make any sense as synchronization should be achieved by means of the missing protrusion which tells the ignition system the position of the pistons. No engine can assume that it's at 90 deg BTDC prior to starting - this has to be detected by the CKP sensor and everything will follow from there.

In fact I think this is one of the reasons why the amount of cranking prior to engine startup is not always the same because it depends on the initial position of the reference point on the flywheel and how long it takes for the CPK sensor to detect it.

 

[polygon]

@amc49 - can you please explain the difference between indexed and slotted sensor ? Never had to remove mine but from the outside, it looks pretty much like the cam position sensor.

The other thing is this - if when installing the CKP sensor, one is required to put the engine in TDC, what would be the situation when you are working on the timing assembly such as to replace the timing belt ? Manually rotating the crank to TDC changes the flywheel's position relative to the CKP sensor but AFAIK, one is not required to realign the CKP sensor once the timing is set.

 

[Marde]

Just me and the kids here tonight, an extra kid for a sleep-over too. Lucky me huh? Hey! Gotta catch the new SNL tonight, it's starting in less than an hour.

Think matey................

If the sensor is a simple one that indexes in to not be able to move like quite a few then no issue. But if SLOTTED then it most likely needs a setting.

#1...........why on earth do you people take them off to begin with??? It is a simple metal proximity sensor and cleaning it does nothing at all. The slotting if present was your warning to not touch it.

The crank and cam sensor work TOGETHER, they indicate TDC and WHICH TDC since it can be one of two there. If the PCM doesn't care the sensor will simply plug into a hole, but if like maybe that engine and no index or woodruff key to locate damper, crank, and timing chain then it may well need good close setting. Don't set and you throw off the expected 'normal' timing difference from crank to cam sensor the PCM is looking for. That can't help. You also just faked out TDC to the PCM, it may not be right now. As well, say software provides for 30 degrees of timing adjustment and you are advanced by 5 degrees because not set right, now you have 35 total and either engine pings or knock sensor detunes engine unnecessarily. The other way or retarded would have the timing then overall too slow. Or pisspoor gas mileage and you wondering why.

Basic rule of cars, pretty much anything slotted needs adjusting. End of story.

I know nothing about that engine hardly at all but if I saw slotting there I would come to an immediate screeching halt with any work I planned on there until I fully knew how to set it. Thinking there may be a specialty tool for that.

The one tooth missing means nothing, you can have error all across the width of that one tooth. Enough I'd say to put holes in pistons if you were unlucky. The actual timing point works out usually to like one side or EDGE of a tooth, the PCM notes the gap and proceeds to use the next leader edge depending on how software is set up. A quarter inch wide gap as a timing point is a disaster to a PCM, it's only a marker.

Some of your points are received as a complaint, or some kind of rant. Please lighten up and make a clear point based on the questions asked. Please?

""why on earth do you people take them off to begin with???""
Prox sensors or magnetic pick-ups DO GET DIRTY and the filth DOES lessen or prevent proper operation. Little or nothing wrong with someone cleaning a prox sensor when suspected dirty or defective. Yes, I cleaned my CPS for no reason, but it did have 9 years of gunk on it. Also, I fixed 25 or more tail wheel position sensors/systems on helicopters while only using a towel on the prox sensor.

"" The crank and cam sensor work TOGETHER""
Yes we know that. No one suggested otherwise.

""You also just faked out TDC to the PCM, it may not be right now.""
""Don't set and you throw off the expected 'normal' timing difference from crank to cam sensor the PCM is looking for""

AFAIK, Ignition timing is not altered if CKP is mis-aligned in the slots on the CKP. The PCM receives good CKP data, bad or weak CKP data, or no CKP data. It is my firm guesstimate that the exact positioning and adjustment of the CKP is done ONLY in order to provide the CKP the best physical position to "sense" the flywheel position as it turns. A slight mis-alignment of the CKP does NOT change ignition timing; mis-alignment would only lessen or kill the signal strength being sent to the PCM. If what I just said is not true; THIS is my confusion and this is why I am involved in this thread. Please help me and others better understand the reasoning of exact CKP positioning.

""Enough I'd say to put holes in pistons if you were unlucky""
Bad CKP data or no CKP data will not crash pistons into valves on this engine. That is impossible right? -because that timing is mechanically set and is completely different than the position of the CKP. However, missing or poor CKP data might cause the engine to run poorly, cause a No Start condition, set a DTC, but would not crash this engine.

Please do not turn this into an argument more than I already have. You are one of of my favorite turds. Peace. My goal was to learn something about the CKP positioning and to get an answer to these two question->

Note to Self: Before removing CKP, clean surrounding area, then hit it with a little white spray paint to mark exact position of CKP before removing it.

^^ why is this white paint not good enough?

-and-

And to further explain or question this CKP situation; If I remove the serp belt -and- remove my CKP -and- turn the engine/crank some; does this change anything or require me to do any engine timing pins and TDC a cylinder before I re-install the CKP? I say no & no problems are created when turning the engine some while the CKP is removed.