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2.3 Intake Manifold Construction Advice
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What are you doing for tuning ? That could be a lot of the issues
Tom
Tom
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It dont matter what you lambda is set (which are all to lean) to that does not mean thats the lambda the engine is making
You need a wide band air fuel gauge to see the actual air fuel the engine is doing , with out this you have no idea
I would start there your HP is low for that engine and so far with what you have stated looks like a lot of it is tuning
Tom
You need a wide band air fuel gauge to see the actual air fuel the engine is doing , with out this you have no idea
I would start there your HP is low for that engine and so far with what you have stated looks like a lot of it is tuning
Tom
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But you have not said anything , with out a knock sensor/dyno you dont know if your timing is what the engine wants just what you want , with out a wide band air fuel gauge you have no idea what the air fuel is
Just because you set the timing to X and the fuel to X does not mean thats what the engine wants or thats whats the engine is getting
My opinion is you need to get the tuning right then work on other things , I still think you may be blaming the wrong thing
You MUST have a wide band to properly tune with out it your wasting your time
Tom
Just because you set the timing to X and the fuel to X does not mean thats what the engine wants or thats whats the engine is getting
My opinion is you need to get the tuning right then work on other things , I still think you may be blaming the wrong thing
You MUST have a wide band to properly tune with out it your wasting your time
Tom
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[facepalm]
Phychic? No, but I met one of those at a Star Trek Convention. She didn't want me to beam her up, or ride on my rocket.
The dyno is not psychic, but by connecting it to a diagnostic computer while running the engine you can get a really great idea of what is going on- and what you're doing by modifications. You need to have spark, fuel, and emission information taken at the same time otherwise you're just shooting in the dark.
Are you sure you have a 2.3L Duratec engine? The 02 ZTW was only available with the Zetec engine, which says Zetec on the valve cover. The obvious difference between the two engines is that the intake manifold is on the rt side of the engine on the Dtec, and left side (rear of engine compartment) on the Zetec. There was no 2.3L Zetec unless that person purchased a stroker kit from 1TurboFocus.
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Its easy your butt will lie to you ,isnt accurate and a poor way to tune , temps change , there is no way for a person to hit the exact thing each time
The dyno is easy it shows HP and TQ , if you add 1 deg and gain 4HP add another , if you take out 1 deg and loose no power take out 2 more
I have removed 4 deg of timing before and not lost any TQ or HP you wouldnt know this by your butt dyno , It takes 5-7 HP before you feel a change that you can accuratly say is a change
Then with out a wide band air fuel gauge and KNOWING where the air fuel is you have no good way to adjust any timing and shouldnt be , fuel safety first then timing changes
I am not trying to be an azz here I have tuned 1 or 2 of these engines and kinda now what it takes to tune and whats needed and your doing this the hard way , If you dont want my imput just say so and I will go away
Tom
The dyno is easy it shows HP and TQ , if you add 1 deg and gain 4HP add another , if you take out 1 deg and loose no power take out 2 more
I have removed 4 deg of timing before and not lost any TQ or HP you wouldnt know this by your butt dyno , It takes 5-7 HP before you feel a change that you can accuratly say is a change
Then with out a wide band air fuel gauge and KNOWING where the air fuel is you have no good way to adjust any timing and shouldnt be , fuel safety first then timing changes
I am not trying to be an azz here I have tuned 1 or 2 of these engines and kinda now what it takes to tune and whats needed and your doing this the hard way , If you dont want my imput just say so and I will go away
Tom
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You guys are impossible. Sorry I stopped by.
Bill
Bill
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No, you guys have not a [
][][][][][]g clue what's wrong, you don't even appear to understand what I've done. So you revert to what you do know: Tuning.
Bill
][][][][][]g clue what's wrong, you don't even appear to understand what I've done. So you revert to what you do know: Tuning.Bill
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You asked for advise , With 30 years of tuning and a dyno buisness and performance engine building buisness I kind of know whats needed and where you should start with an engine
You didnt like the advise given , if you dont want to listen why ask ?
I have built engines , turbo kits , MANY custom intake manifolds , I tryed to tell you where you need to start from posting YOUR timing , HP and "targeted" air fuel , you dont even know what your air fuel is or that the lamda you put into your tune IS NOT YOUR AIR FUEL
These things you need to know before you do anything and you dont want to listen , you have a good day and good luck
Tom
You didnt like the advise given , if you dont want to listen why ask ?
I have built engines , turbo kits , MANY custom intake manifolds , I tryed to tell you where you need to start from posting YOUR timing , HP and "targeted" air fuel , you dont even know what your air fuel is or that the lamda you put into your tune IS NOT YOUR AIR FUEL
These things you need to know before you do anything and you dont want to listen , you have a good day and good luck
Tom
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I did not ask for tuning advice. I asked for input on the performance of the manifold. Specifically, if the performance of the manifold offered any characteristics worth preserving. No advice was offered. I was told that I didn't know my ass from my elbow and probably could not even identify a Duratec engine.
But make no mistake, I am awed and humbled by your presence and all who contributed.
But make no mistake, I am awed and humbled by your presence and all who contributed.
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Then yeah, the manifold sucks.
Did you figure out which engine you have with surety? Just to keep your spending in check: Ford makes a racing manifold for the Zetec that is fairly inexpensive from FordRacing. IIRC (if I recall correctly) it's like $200. Used versions might be available on this site from time to time much cheaper than that. FordRacing makes no Dtec intake that I know of, but Cosworth and a Chinese rough finish copy are available for $700 or $400 respectively. I think there is another one available from Top Speed, one of our other vendors, for somewhere between those 2 prices IIRC.
If you were making a Dtec intake in the layman's scope, ie: without flow bench, dyno, etc, the first thing I'd do (besides buy a TIG) is use a fabric measuring tape to measure the stock runner length and rough sq" of the port. That would give a decent starting point. From then on what applies to V8 manifolds as far as balancing velocity and volume to provide maximum performance in X rpm would still apply to EFI manifolds.
1TurboFocus has a flow bench, and has done some experimenting with manifolds on Dtecs. IIRC, what he said is that the factory manifold flows great for street performance as is. It's hard to beat IAT's of plastic manifolds even with aluminum, so that's one point. The HP Dtec manifolds like the Cosworth are shorter runners tuned for mid-high rpm usage, and I can refer you to threads of woes and dynos proving there's a drop in torque/increase in max torque rpm like you'd expect from increased volume and lower velocity.
Given the layman's info I mentioned at first, I'd try to balance out increases in volume with increases in runner length to equalize velocity. It's a hobby, right? All you're really wasting is time and a little money for fun. It's bound to be more exciting and educational in the long term than visiting a casino. Especially if you're like me and seem to walk away from every machine just before it hits.
OH, for a real money pit, research how much it costs to build an electric hot-rod or drag racer with an AC motor- the only way to do regenerative braking easily, and have rpms better than diesel. DC motors are good for drag racing- but not for cruising. AC motors are like 3x as expensive. It is possible to spend about half what a Volt retails for and get something with 100 mile battery. Now if sizable 400 hz generators and electronics were available then more suitable range extending engines could be found and utilized for about the same cost as a Volt. That would give the DIYer a plug-in hybrid with 100 mile charge range unlimited speed of all elec driving, and similar hybrid performance even without the engine and range extending generator being connected to the transmission via clutches. I digress..
Did you figure out which engine you have with surety? Just to keep your spending in check: Ford makes a racing manifold for the Zetec that is fairly inexpensive from FordRacing. IIRC (if I recall correctly) it's like $200. Used versions might be available on this site from time to time much cheaper than that. FordRacing makes no Dtec intake that I know of, but Cosworth and a Chinese rough finish copy are available for $700 or $400 respectively. I think there is another one available from Top Speed, one of our other vendors, for somewhere between those 2 prices IIRC.
If you were making a Dtec intake in the layman's scope, ie: without flow bench, dyno, etc, the first thing I'd do (besides buy a TIG) is use a fabric measuring tape to measure the stock runner length and rough sq" of the port. That would give a decent starting point. From then on what applies to V8 manifolds as far as balancing velocity and volume to provide maximum performance in X rpm would still apply to EFI manifolds.
1TurboFocus has a flow bench, and has done some experimenting with manifolds on Dtecs. IIRC, what he said is that the factory manifold flows great for street performance as is. It's hard to beat IAT's of plastic manifolds even with aluminum, so that's one point. The HP Dtec manifolds like the Cosworth are shorter runners tuned for mid-high rpm usage, and I can refer you to threads of woes and dynos proving there's a drop in torque/increase in max torque rpm like you'd expect from increased volume and lower velocity.
Given the layman's info I mentioned at first, I'd try to balance out increases in volume with increases in runner length to equalize velocity. It's a hobby, right? All you're really wasting is time and a little money for fun. It's bound to be more exciting and educational in the long term than visiting a casino. Especially if you're like me and seem to walk away from every machine just before it hits.
OH, for a real money pit, research how much it costs to build an electric hot-rod or drag racer with an AC motor- the only way to do regenerative braking easily, and have rpms better than diesel. DC motors are good for drag racing- but not for cruising. AC motors are like 3x as expensive. It is possible to spend about half what a Volt retails for and get something with 100 mile battery. Now if sizable 400 hz generators and electronics were available then more suitable range extending engines could be found and utilized for about the same cost as a Volt. That would give the DIYer a plug-in hybrid with 100 mile charge range unlimited speed of all elec driving, and similar hybrid performance even without the engine and range extending generator being connected to the transmission via clutches. I digress..
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There is no doubt about the engine. It is one of the early Duratecs that were built as part of the initial QA/QC program. It had zero miles, still mounted on the shipping pallet.
The manifold was constructed to fit the space available. Or rather what I thought was available. I did manage to make it with equal length runners. At the time I thought I would be severely restricted in runner diameter. Remember, this was done while I was fighting to find a way to shoehorn a Duratec into the cramped engine compartment and I wasn't positive how everything would shake out.
The project has developed to the point I think it is possible to make a copy of the current (19" runner length) manifold, but in 1 7/8" or 2" runner O.D instead of 1 5/8", hoping the extra diameter would cure the awful upper rpm power sag. I believe it is also possible to make an intake that has runners in the 13-16" length and 1 7/8" or 2" O.D. Strangely enough, anything shorter than 13" or between 16 and 19" is out of the question, as are the OEM and commercial manifolds. There just isn't any extra room.
I was trying to determine if the long runners had given any hp or torque advantage on the bottom end. If so, I was going to try to make a large bore version of what I have. In retrospect, the overwhelming response that the tuning sucks makes me think I will loose nothing by going to a homemade version of the OEM.
Sorry that I came off as an ass.
Bill
The manifold was constructed to fit the space available. Or rather what I thought was available. I did manage to make it with equal length runners. At the time I thought I would be severely restricted in runner diameter. Remember, this was done while I was fighting to find a way to shoehorn a Duratec into the cramped engine compartment and I wasn't positive how everything would shake out.
The project has developed to the point I think it is possible to make a copy of the current (19" runner length) manifold, but in 1 7/8" or 2" runner O.D instead of 1 5/8", hoping the extra diameter would cure the awful upper rpm power sag. I believe it is also possible to make an intake that has runners in the 13-16" length and 1 7/8" or 2" O.D. Strangely enough, anything shorter than 13" or between 16 and 19" is out of the question, as are the OEM and commercial manifolds. There just isn't any extra room.
I was trying to determine if the long runners had given any hp or torque advantage on the bottom end. If so, I was going to try to make a large bore version of what I have. In retrospect, the overwhelming response that the tuning sucks makes me think I will loose nothing by going to a homemade version of the OEM.
Sorry that I came off as an ass.
Bill
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