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Old 10-02-2019, 09:49 AM   #11
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Petik knows my setup, as we have been texting about it.
For others interested, to get stiffer rates in the rear, we used the Moog catalog to find springs that are within 1/4" of the stock ID (0 points per Champ rules). The ones I am using now were about 360 lbs/in stock, but after cutting them to get the lowered ride height we wanted, they are now 460 lbs/in. I've tested them on a spring rate checker.
There are other springs that start out at a higher rate that will yield rates between 550- 650 once they are cut, but I haven't played with any of them yet.
So the current rear rate = 460 lbs.

We run Bilstein B8's all around. To achieve balance, and have adjustability up front, I've cut the stock spring seats off the Bilsteins, and slid coilovers sleeves over them to be able to use 2.5" ID Eibach springs. Currently, we are running 400 lbs front to go with the 460 rears.
We are running stock SVT sway bars front and rear. The car is pretty well balanced right now. We may have to adjust rates or bars once I get the Quaife LSD installed.
We've also redrilled the strut towers inboard and rearward to achieve more static camber (running -2.5 degrees), and also to add dynamic camber from the increased caster setting.

edit: Our previous setup used cut stock rear springs, which increased the rate from 159# to 213#, and used 175# 2.5" ID springs up front, but the car still had the excessive dive and roll that Petik described. One of my drivers characterized the car as having a "hop", meaning that at turn in, the front end rolled hard into jounce, and then rose again before taking a set. With the current rates, that tendency is gone. At turn in, the car rolls less and takes a set immediately.
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoppola View Post
A little more power than stock = LOL!!
Good luck at the runoffs Michael. Sorry I've been so out of touch...
But I'll be monitoring your practice, qualifying and race via internet.
I made it I have one fan.lol. Anything mike says on suspension set up works, I am just with a different race organization so our rules packages have set me a different direction. Donít look for much in the way of performance I was speaking to a number of people and the top 8-10 cars are builds in excess of 100k. Yeah I thought I was crazy but there or those more nuts than me. I review the entry list 20 plus miatas, 7 Honda, 2 toyota, one Nissan and one Ford Focus. Hell I am the only domestic, I think I picked the wrong class to run in. Oh well.
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:15 AM   #13
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So what I'm really curious about is how heavily does the stiff sway bar play into your spring selection.

Mike C, i think you're running the stock sways, right? That means the goal would be for the springs to be as stiff as possible to compensate. We've done the same with moving the upper strut tower mount inboard (diagonally) to gain both camber and caster.

Mike S, completely removing the front sway is definitely something I've considered and it sounds like it may be a reasonable way to go here. Plus it simplifies the math a bit (and gives me back 20 points!).
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Old 10-02-2019, 12:03 PM   #14
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The way I've been taught (and the math agrees) is that roll needs more rate to control than dive. A sway bar is used to assist the springs with roll control, with each doing about half the work (roughly). However, for full blown race cars, I've seen very stiff spring rates controlling most of the roll, and some (like Mike S is doing) use no sway bar at all.

I've looked into building a Superlite Cars SLC, and have toured the build facility. Some of the cars that SLC builds do not use sway bars at all! The builder, who worked for some F1 teams years back, says that sway bars are a band aid for insufficient spring rates. They can be used for balancing a car, but are not entirely necessary if the car is sprung correctly. Just another opinion/experience to consider when looking at the function of springs and bars...
So in reality, the various sized (diameter) sway bars that are available for road/street cars are used to control roll without springing the car too stiff for comfortable street driving.
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Old 10-02-2019, 12:39 PM   #15
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I agree with the above about more spring and less sway bar. Especially in the front of a fwd car. You don't want to unload your inside tire, especially without a LSD.
Soft springs and heavy sway bar is just going to pick up your inside tire. Ok on the rear, but not the front.
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Old 10-02-2019, 01:30 PM   #16
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Are you allowed a better diff, I have run every one, including a custom made unit. Kaaz by far has been the best so far. Our 2580 lb 2 liter zx3 is set for the runoffs, no front bar, 600 front, 850 rear springs, jbr race bar, massive thing, lower front stay bar, 15” wheels running 225 section tires. R7 Small area mods, splitter rear wing. Lexan windows, carbon hatch, 2 liter built to the letter of the rules Focus Power motor, lots and lots and lots of dyno time. 4:25 final drive, quiafe gears, and away we go to see how it does. I like no front bar, it lets the front settle in especially in the bumpy areas over curbs.
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Old 10-02-2019, 01:50 PM   #17
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diff is 25pts and i've been debating that. i have an mfactory helical sitting here on a bench ready to be dropped in. Tom mentioned the same thing about KAAZ but they only appear to make one for the mtx75 (and not the getrag), at least per their website. I have 3 getrags laying around so i'd prefer not to go dump more money into switching over to the mtx75. I think i need to pick your brain around springs so i get the right setup - what length springs did you end up going with to get a good ride height? Since you're running h&r rears i assume you're stuck with just clearing bump stops all around.
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Old 10-02-2019, 01:51 PM   #18
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Champcar allows LSD (for 25 points.)
I have a Quaife unit that haven't installed yet.
Getrag 6 speed choices are more limited than the MTX-75.
….I know, why are we still running SVT stuff? LOL.
When you have 3 engines/trans for 1 car, it's hard to switch.
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Old 10-02-2019, 08:28 PM   #19
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In SCCA f production I have a friend who is building svt for this class, using a zetec case for mtx75 trans. It allows for more interchange as opposed to the 6 sp unit, a little bit of work but zetec units are reasonable. Just a thought, with the ability to change final drive. 3:42/3.82/4:06/4:25/4:75
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Old 10-03-2019, 07:59 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msperber View Post
In SCCA f production I have a friend who is building svt for this class, using a zetec case for mtx75 trans. It allows for more interchange as opposed to the 6 sp unit, a little bit of work but zetec units are reasonable. Just a thought, with the ability to change final drive. 3:42/3.82/4:06/4:25/4:75
The 4.06 and 4.25 are pretty hard to come by it seems. I'd love to find a set for my 2006.
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