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Old 08-01-2019, 07:17 PM   #41
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Ford totally forgot the primary rule of a product, it is to ease the life of the user not to make it harder for them to do a thing. Then they backed it up MUCH worse by claiming the driver had to learn to fit the car not the other way around. The person that came up with that policy needs to be fired as in a long time ago.

Corporate hubris of the highest order.
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Old 08-07-2019, 01:35 PM   #42
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When a Ford tech tells you that the vehicles are designed (programmed) to make the car launch "more comfortably" what do you think is going on? The car is riding the clutches.

I'm not here to talk down to people. Insinuating this is a true automatic transmission is idiotic though. It has shift forks, clutch packs, etc. It is a manual internally, okay?

You can ride your clutch in a manual for a while before you start to pay for it. I got into an argument recently with someone who kept telling me Ford wouldn't program it this way because of what it has cost them. Okay, but then *why* did Ford keep producing the vehicle?

This same transmission (6DCT250) is found in several Renault vehicles, and my research indicates that their version doesn't have shudder issues. I can't find a thing that indicates it's any different a trans. I'm next to positive the shudder is a result of bad programming. I don't think new clutch packs would fix the issue even temporarily otherwise.

Yes, I did happen to buy Tom's tune, and yes I'm still dealing with shudder unfortunately. However, I put 31,000 miles on my clutch packs prior. That's a LOT of slipping and shuddering. I wish to be shudder free. May not be possible. I'd like to see someone with fresh clutches and a tune tell me what's going on 30k miles later.

Now, is it possible that poor clutch material could result in shudder? You better believe it. I think you could blame a small portion of shudder on this.

People have asked: If it's this simple, why hasn't Ford changed it? Well go ask Ford. They market it as automatic. They program it to shift as close as possible to a true auto. They wanted it this way obviously, right, is that it?

Tom isn't a genius and this isn't a miracle. The computer replaces the driver. Something is wrong with the computer

Thanks for reading my essay!

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Old 08-07-2019, 03:45 PM   #43
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Poll: DTC

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordFailus2016 View Post
When a Ford tech tells you that the vehicles are designed (programmed) to make the car launch "more comfortably" what do you think is going on? The car is riding the clutches.

I'm not here to talk down to people. Insinuating this is a true automatic transmission is idiotic though. It has shift forks, clutch packs, etc. It is a manual internally, okay?

You can ride your clutch in a manual for a while before you start to pay for it. I got into an argument recently with someone who kept telling me Ford wouldn't program it this way because of what it has cost them. Okay, but then *why* did Ford keep producing the vehicle?

This same transmission (6DCT250) is found in several Renault vehicles, and my research indicates that their version doesn't have shudder issues. I can't find a thing that indicates it's any different a trans. I'm next to positive the shudder is a result of bad programming. I don't think new clutch packs would fix the issue even temporarily otherwise.

Yes, I did happen to buy Tom's tune, and yes I'm still dealing with shudder unfortunately. However, I put 31,000 miles on my clutch packs prior. That's a LOT of slipping and shuddering. I wish to be shudder free. May not be possible. I'd like to see someone with fresh clutches and a tune tell me what's going on 30k miles later.

Now, is it possible that poor clutch material could result in shudder? You better believe it. I think you could blame a small portion of shudder on this.

People have asked: If it's this simple, why hasn't Ford changed it? Well go ask Ford. They market it as automatic. They program it to shift as close as possible to a true auto. They wanted it this way obviously, right, is that it?

Tom isn't a genius and this isn't a miracle. The computer replaces the driver. Something is wrong with the computer

Thanks for reading my essay!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using FF Mobile


Completely agree that programming is 90% or more of the issue. I have driven manual trannys for 36 years. I have always gotten more than 150k miles out of a clutch, some of those miles driven by a previous owner when I bought used cars. I live in the SF Bay Area so keep in mind this means hills included. My point is that since the DCT is functionally a manual, the programming could be tweaked to improve clutch life to 100 - 150k. To over simplify, driving a manual considers the following: vehicle speed, RPM, current gear, throttle input, engine load and clutch position. Makes me wonder if the Ford team responsible for the programming strategy actually drive manual trannys on the daily. Heck, I think only 18% of Americans know how to operate a manual and that doesn’t confirm they are even good or experienced. Would love to talk to the Ford programming folks lol.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:20 PM   #44
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Completely agree that programming is 90% or more of the issue. I have driven manual trannys for 36 years. I have always gotten more than 150k miles out of a clutch, some of those miles driven by a previous owner when I bought used cars. I live in the SF Bay Area so keep in mind this means hills included. My point is that since the DCT is functionally a manual, the programming could be tweaked to improve clutch life to 100 - 150k. To over simplify, driving a manual considers the following: vehicle speed, RPM, current gear, throttle input, engine load and clutch position. Makes me wonder if the Ford team responsible for the programming strategy actually drive manual trannys on the daily. Heck, I think only 18% of Americans know how to operate a manual and that doesn’t confirm they are even good or experienced. Would love to talk to the Ford programming folks lol.
I'm glad someone else sees it for what it is, largely.

I would suspect you should get a good amount of miles on this trans even with clutch shudder, but I'm not sure specifically how long the clutches would last. Someone who's slipped the clutch in their manual a lot might know. Lol

Not sure why they can't see why all that extra slipping is a problem. Truly mind boggling to try and wrap your head around. Some people have a hard time believing a tune would solve/help the issue. I get why, but clearly, there's an ethics/culture issue at Ford.

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Old 08-07-2019, 05:22 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Focus_Hack View Post
Completely agree that programming is 90% or more of the issue. I have driven manual trannys for 36 years. I have always gotten more than 150k miles out of a clutch, some of those miles driven by a previous owner when I bought used cars. I live in the SF Bay Area so keep in mind this means hills included. My point is that since the DCT is functionally a manual, the programming could be tweaked to improve clutch life to 100 - 150k. To over simplify, driving a manual considers the following: vehicle speed, RPM, current gear, throttle input, engine load and clutch position. Makes me wonder if the Ford team responsible for the programming strategy actually drive manual trannys on the daily. Heck, I think only 18% of Americans know how to operate a manual and that doesn’t confirm they are even good or experienced. Would love to talk to the Ford programming folks lol.
I'm glad someone else sees it for what it is, largely.

I would suspect you should get a good amount of miles on this trans even with clutch shudder, but I'm not sure specifically how long the clutches would last. Someone who's slipped the clutch in their manual a lot might know. Lol

Not sure why they can't see why all that extra slipping is a problem. Truly mind boggling to try and wrap your head around. Some people have a hard time believing a tune would solve/help the issue. I get why, but clearly, there's an ethics/culture issue at Ford.

Edit: Damn double post. Lol
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:16 AM   #46
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Have a 2017 SEL sedan. With Sport shift, car has been most trouble free car ever owned. 42,000 mi. never been in for any service except normal service, and no recalls. Driven mostly in town for delivering, a lot of stop and go. The best thing to do. Drive the hell out of it, and I do.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:58 AM   #47
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I'm not here to talk down to people. Insinuating this is a true automatic transmission is idiotic though. It has shift forks, clutch packs, etc. It is a manual internally, okay?
Then Ford's Focus sales brochures should have stated on page 1: "You can't drive this econobox grocery getter like every other non-manual trans car sold for many FN decades. You have to drive it a special way, or it will grenade."

Ford F'd up here. No way to spin it.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:09 PM   #48
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Having driven more manual transmission cars than automatics, and having had terrible luck with about every automatic that I have owned, I would have much preferred a manual when I bought this thing.

Rather dismayed at the reality of the DCT, I thought about how/why I choose to clutch the way I do in a manual, and if I were telling a computer how to do it, what would I do. I came to the conclusion that it would be nearly impossible, unless the compyuter were also controlling the throttle, and viewing the drive ahead. A large part of how I choose to engage the clutch has to do with that I intend to do. I might still give the gas a little pressure to let the clutch out, even if I intend to go slow, just to get the clutch engaged sooner. If I do the same thing with the gas in the DCT, I'll end up crashing into the car in front of me in traffic. I can't really see how a good solution to program that would be, unless you make the car entirely self-driving.
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Old 08-08-2019, 03:40 PM   #49
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Then Ford's Focus sales brochures should have stated on page 1: "You can't drive this econobox grocery getter like every other non-manual trans car sold for many FN decades. You have to drive it a special way, or it will grenade."



Ford F'd up here. No way to spin it.
Ford did mess it up, I'm not disagreeing with you. However, there is literally zero point in creeping at stop lights, for instance. You aren't getting any further at all. Hell, odds are the person in front of you isn't even gonna go the speed limit. It's a dumb habit that I'm pretty sure I had when I drove torque converter trans, and I blame other people that do it for me picking it up. Now I don't do it anymore.

I allow space and move when I can apply enough throttle. My only concern with this vehicle is driving below full engagement speed in parking lots, and parking safely for the clutches. I have to stop and catch myself cause I'll try to ease up with the brake if I want to move up. That's a major downside right there to a DCT. Makes me nervous because I'm one of those people that can't stand their vehicle not being parked straight.

When you're in a traffic jam it's annoying the same way I figure a manual is. Gas the the throttle, pull up, and brake. Rinse and repeat. This is one of only a couple of instances where driving a DCT is annoying. Otherwise it's fine, but Ford definitely puts too much slip into the launch. For some reason, they don't see an issue with it, and it causes defects in your clutch packs.

All dry DCTS are supposed to be driven differently, not just the DPS6. Ford messed up further by calling it "Powershift Automatic" rather than a Dual Clutch Automatic. Hell, call it semi-automatic; might sound stupid but it's far more accurate. Most Americans know jack shit about manual trans anyway.

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Old 08-08-2019, 03:44 PM   #50
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This same transmission (6DCT250) is found in several Renault vehicles, and my research indicates that their version doesn't have shudder issues. I can't find a thing that indicates it's any different a trans.

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Have you searched the "French" car forums?

Try Renault EDC6 , not the EDC7 which is the wet clutch.

My research from around the EU markets regarding the EDC6 (Renaults code for the Getrag 6DCT250) has the exact same issues as its twin the 6DCT250, with "heat" being the culprit.
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