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Old 08-01-2019, 11:06 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by rczrider View Post
Anticipating the shift points is borderline impossible, specifically because the car is supposed to change shift points on the fly, based on a variety of factors. While there's certainly a range, you have to spend a great deal of time with your car and have extremely regular driving habits to make this advice worth anything.

A manual works because you don't have to anticipate anything; you're in control. Unless you have a telepathic link to your transmission (in which case you should call Elon Musk), you simply can't interact with it the way you're suggesting.

Rather, the best advice is to be "intentional" in your driving and avoid creeping in slow traffic. That reduces the variations in your driving habits and takes a lot of traffic scenarios out of the equation that the computer uses to determine your shifting pattern. Essentially, dumb down your driving so the computer - which is too stupid to do what Ford wanted it to do - can keep up.
It seems like the heat factor associated with a Dry-DCT may cause the variation in friction coefficients that the Ford engineers was having trouble making these work. GM must have confidence in their DCT technology as they are using a wet/almost-dry DCT as the only option available in their new Corvettes. You heard that right, you can't even get a vette with a manual.
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:10 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by saintsfins View Post
Not arguing with what you said, but it is beyond ridiculous to expect a driver to do that for a non-manual car. The vast majority of buyers who don't want a stick expect to drive it like nearly every other auto trans car made for MANY decades. Shame on Ford for this crap.
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Anticipating the shift points is borderline impossible, specifically because the car is supposed to change shift points on the fly, based on a variety of factors. While there's certainly a range, you have to spend a great deal of time with your car and have extremely regular driving habits to make this advice worth anything.

A manual works because you don't have to anticipate anything; you're in control. Unless you have a telepathic link to your transmission (in which case you should call Elon Musk), you simply can't interact with it the way you're suggesting.

Rather, the best advice is to be "intentional" in your driving and avoid creeping in slow traffic. That reduces the variations in your driving habits and takes a lot of traffic scenarios out of the equation that the computer uses to determine your shifting pattern. Essentially, dumb down your driving so the computer - which is too stupid to do what Ford wanted it to do - can keep up.

If we're being honest, that advice is going to make you a "better" driver, anyway. Creeping doesn't actually help anyone get anywhere any faster, and being intentional in your acceleration and braking will make you more aware of your surroundings and driving conditions. Of course, Americans are sh!tty drivers, so good luck getting anyone do any of that.
Hey, speak for yourself! If you cannot do that - doesn't mean everyone cannot do it.
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:18 AM   #33
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Hey, speak for yourself! If you cannot do that - doesn't mean everyone cannot do it.
Yeah, okay. Glad to know that you alone have fixed the DPS6 in its entirety simply by knowing more about what the computer is trying to do than the computer does.

Let me know when Ford gets back to you about your revolutionary fix. All they need to do is turn your brain into a computer program, and the DPS6 is fixed!
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:21 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by rczrider View Post
Yeah, okay. Glad to know that you alone have fixed the DPS6 in its entirety simply by knowing more about what the computer is trying to do than the computer does.

Let me know when Ford gets back to you about your revolutionary fix. All they need to do is turn your brain into a computer program, and the DPS6 is fixed!
I'm just hinting to you that you are rude. And you double down on it.
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:16 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by GhiaFan View Post
To the OP - If you really believe what you have posted answer me this. Why did Ford choose to switch to a normal torque converter automatic in the face lift 2015 Focus in all of it's global markets except for the North America (USA & Canada) market?

Bottom line is dry dual clutch transmissions fault is thermal. The drivers who live in the country with no stop and go traffic & flat geography will have the best luck with this type of transmission.
For me heat has to be playing a large part in this. The question I have though that Ford engineers must know the answers to is why a new clutch set doesn't screw up in the same hot conditions. We've recently had a new clutch set, are well into the Houston heat and humidity and all is smooth. Is it a coating on the new clutch faces that wears away eventually?.....or just a few thousand miles wear on the new clutches is enough to bring back the shudder? I've seen posts from some folks who have shudder return after only 20 K miles.
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:53 PM   #36
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Just like with computers, or anything else, if you have a thermal problem it does not go away by itself.

I did a little experimenting last night, and there is a consistent way to "anticipate" the shift points, and that is by forcing it. A little more on the gas pedal than you might normally will keep it in gear for a bit longer, and when you lift, the car will upshift. Then back on the pedal, and you're good. So can it be done? Sure. It's annoying, and I can't se driving that way becoming a habit for me.

I had to deal with nasty slow traffic for my commute yesterday, too. A section of the freeway was closed off because of an accident, and everyone had to funnel into an offramp. Traffic at a crawl for 45 minutes. I tend to let the gap in front of me build up a bit, then move, but doing that, as soon as there was room for a car in front of me, someone would cut into it, so my DCT got a little extra wear. I wasn't happy. That's not a solution, and wouldn't have been how I did that even in a car with a real manual transmission. I cannot force the DCT to be fully engaged as I'm creeping along at 5km/h, though I can in a real manual.

Well, being that I'm not a mechanical engineer, I can't say for sure what the problem is. I can take the information that I have and speculate. It is entirely wrong to place the entire onus of driving to accommodate the car, rather than the car accommodating the way we drive to be safe in traffic. When driving on public roads, my first priority is to adapt to road and traffic conditions for the safety of myself, as well as everyone else on the road. It is NOT to try to adapt to special needs of my vehicle. It is how well the vehicle adapts to the conditions typical to general use that determines how well it is designed, and in this regard,t he DCT is an abject failure.
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:02 PM   #37
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For me heat has to be playing a large part in this. The question I have though that Ford engineers must know the answers to is why a new clutch set doesn't screw up in the same hot conditions. We've recently had a new clutch set, are well into the Houston heat and humidity and all is smooth. Is it a coating on the new clutch faces that wears away eventually?.....or just a few thousand miles wear on the new clutches is enough to bring back the shudder? I've seen posts from some folks who have shudder return after only 20 K miles.
As the clutches wear down more, they lose their ability to retain and properly disperse heat; much like brake pads.
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:42 PM   #38
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I'm just hinting to you that you are rude. And you double down on it.
And I'm just saying outright that anyone with common sense and the ability to read understands that the DPS6 is a steaming turd, and those that say otherwise - you included - are either na´ve, in denial, or Ford apologists. Not sure which of those you're doubling down on, though. Care to clarify?

Just because there are ways that the DPS6 can be coaxed into being less of a garbage transmission doesn't mean that the DPS6 isn't a garbage transmission. And just because one way of using it works for one person doesn't mean that it's a "fix", nor does it make any sense whatsoever for a person to suggest that folks should have to use it that way. Are you really suggesting that if Ford had advised all of its customers before they bought a car it the DPS6 that they'd have to learn a new way to drive, they'd still have bought it? Please.

It bothers me not one iota that you think I'm rude. Since the first DFP article, it has been glaringly obvious that not even Ford (really) thinks this transmission is anything but a dumpster fire. I have a hard time respecting folks who defend it when those who designed it can't even do so behind closed doors and they're being honest.

Last edited by rczrider; 08-01-2019 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 08-01-2019, 05:08 PM   #39
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To defend a company that sold you a defective product is ridiculous. They deserve serious financial harm, and it needs to go to you the consumer.
I highly suggest some of y'all listen to Clark Howard he is a financial and consumer advocate.
Maybe he could teach you how terrible companies are to their customers how little they care about you.

I'm a car guy but I don't expect a senior citizen grandma, or a soccer mom, or someone who's not into cars to know how a particular transmission works. It may not be a hydraulic automatic, but it is automatic by definition as it does the function for you.

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Old 08-01-2019, 07:12 PM   #40
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Post #35, #37..............the clutch wears to begin to fray the outer lining slightly, that leads to a not knowing of exactly how thick it is then leading to not knowing just exactly where the point in space is for X amount of power transferred at a certain point. A new clutch has a certain pretty close point of engagement, that all becomes very blurry once the disc begins to fray the lining, the true engagement point then becomes very much wider for the computer to fumble around trying to guess at it. Varied temperature affects that wildly. Add one disc having to be in time with the other doubles that error to be totally unpredictable. Heat expanding the lining makes it worse.

There is really never enough wear alone to make a disc run hotter. Most discs tend to be considered worn out at only .030" of material missing off of them; it's simply not enough to run hotter based on that alone.

I don't know what the clutch disc looks like but if it has a marcel feature to shock absorb or the clutch pack itself has a cush section to do the same that likely gets pounded flat in the case of marcel or the other method gradually gives up from repeat applications and that would then absolutely add to the problem of predictability over longterm use too.
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