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Old 05-17-2019, 07:15 PM   #51
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Auto vs manual does make a unique difference as it applies to reproducing the symptom of hesitation, bucking, surging. While driving, I can not control which gear I am in (except for O/D on or off) while you have full control.

To reproduce my prior engine problem/symptom in your car:
Try going too slow (slower than usual) while in 3rd gear
Try going too slow (slower than usual) while in 4th gear
Try going too slow (slower than usual) while in 5th gear
Also add a slight uphill incline if available and minimal throttle.

Please note that I am NOT talking about the NORMAL behavior of an engine bucking and surging when you drive way too slow in a high gear when driving a stick shift. However, the resulting symptom is a somewhat similar behavior.

Another example might be a 4-cylinder engine, that is only running on 3 cylinders but ONLY at certain speeds and load conditions.

Edit: please also add or include warm/hot outside air temperature to the test conditions mentioned above. Colder outside air input to the engine helps alleviate or almost cures the problem/symptom. This is also why the EGR gasses, when added to the engine intake, makes the problem & symptoms worse. The EGR adds HOT air into the intake. When you disconnect the EGR electrical connector, the EGR valve is closed, and no more hot EGR gasses are added to the engine intake.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:33 AM   #52
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EGR issues can present differently due to the difference in ATX and MTX as the timing maps are often somewhat different for the two.

EGR may be adding something hot but the difference is not that simple, for one, it's not air, rather exhaust which does not burn like air and two, EGR adding exhaust although a hotter product actually COOLS the combustion process down. The whole idea of EGR is to get the combustion temp to drop below 2500 degrees which is where NOx begins to form. EGR does that by spacing the burnable molecules out more to burn slower but it can make for a patchy burn that then can make engine hesitate and otherwise act up. The EGR is typically turned off with colder engine temps anyway, cold engines can't tolerate it well.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:39 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
...EGR may be adding something hot but the difference is not that simple, for one, it's not air, rather exhaust which does not burn like air and two, EGR adding exhaust although a hotter product actually COOLS the combustion process down...
Yeah, I was not saying air, like you suggested. I am fully aware that EGR is what it is, and it is also in the acronym name-> Exhaust Gas. Saying "air" might be technically inaccurate or flat-out wrong... gimme a break dude, you know what I meant. At one point I even said "EGR gasses".

Your post was very educational for me. I never knew about those technical bits of info you added, the stuff about cooling down the combustion temp. Very interesting stuff there. While that is (or might be) absolute scientific fact, please let me explain why I do not care about that at this moment...

The Symptoms and Real World Results: (based on my experiences and other people too)

Side note: when I say "the symptoms" I am talking about engine hesitation, bucking, surging. At speed, when the symptom appears, it is kinda like the engine stutters like a bobble-head doll. And while at a full stop or during a rolling start, the engine will briefly fall on its' face and you wait a second or two for the power to come back. A slight feather of the throttle would help.


The symptoms are not found during cool/cold weather.
The symptoms get worse or happen more often as outside air temps get hotter.
The symptoms are greatly relieved or maybe disappear when the EGR is electrically disconnected.
The EGR adds hot air (hot gasses) into the intake manifold.
The EGR (when opened) is effectively acting just like an increase in outside air temperature.
The EGR is not at fault here, or was not in my case.
The problems and symptoms disappeared after replacing the Red 12-hole Bosch fuel injectors.

So, while ERG might (or does) in fact cool down the combustion process, that fact does not change my experiences or my results.

Frankenstein says hot air bad, cold air good.

If you are Frankenstein, and are driving a car with Bosch Red 12-hole injectors, replace them when you encounter these symptoms.

I used re-man'ed units. Not too expensive either.
Example here
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIFETIME-WA...L/111356698410

Lastly, I do not want to push this down the throat of the OP. The OP seems to have some separation of my old symptoms verses his. This also includes or respects the differences between Auto and Manual trans.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:14 PM   #54
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BTW the parts link above was just an example, but I just found the exact seller I bought my new reman'ed units from here->
https://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Bosch-F...-/200902252370

“Set of Genuine factory fuel injectors. Each of our injectors goes through a stringent proprietary service process. Based on the flow measurements they are grouped into OE or better flow matched sets. All rebuilt units receive all new wear items including seals, o-rings, retainers, caps, and filters. Buy factory direct and save! By purchasing you are supporting a United States based business with USA employees doing quality work to save you money on auto repair. Thanks for your support!Set of Genuine factory fuel injectors. Each of our injectors goes through a stringent proprietary service process. Based on the flow measurements they are grouped into OE or better flow matched sets. All rebuilt units receive all new wear items including seals, o-rings, retainers, caps, and filters. Buy factory direct and save! By purchasing you are supporting a United States based business with USA employees doing quality work to save you money on auto repair. Thanks for your support!”
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:00 AM   #55
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Not trying to drive you crazy Marde old boy. My apologies.
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Old 05-20-2019, 06:26 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marde View Post
Lastly, I do not want to push this down the throat of the OP. The OP seems to have some separation of my old symptoms verses his. This also includes or respects the differences between Auto and Manual trans.
I've been searching and searching for any posts with symptoms like ours. Yours was the closest thing I could find and I chalked up the differences being due to auto vs manual. I've ordered injectors.

I cannot replicate the symptoms with the EGR unplugged. When it was connected, I could make it stumble by lugging it if temp was over 70 deg.
Anything over 80 deg and does it on its own without me trying.
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:03 PM   #57
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I learned the hard way that the fuel rail (with injectors attached) is stuck into the engine head due to o-ring age, dirt, gunk inside each injector cavity. The secret is to spray some penetrating oil inside each injector cavity, and then wiggle and shake and pull the fuel rail out. Scream at it too.

Many brands of penetrating oil to choose from, I think I used Liquid Wrench, but any brand would work. Even WD-40 is probably good enough.

Clean out the injector cavities after you get the rail off.

Each injector is attached onto the fuel rail with a unique thin metal ring locking clip. Good luck with that, mine were tricky, or I was too dumb, or both.

Lube each new injector o-ring prior to reinstalling into engine head. I forgot what lube type I used. Maybe it was dielectric grease. The injectors are reinstalled into the engine head as an assembly, aka with the fuel rail, aka just like you pulled the fuel rail off (with injectors attached).

Also, even after pulling the fuel pump fuse out, to depressurize the system, there is still enough pressure inside that will squirt & splash you when disconnecting the fuel rail fuel line. So have a rag ready to catch the burst of fuel. The fuel fitting retainer "clip" does NOT need to be removed in order to disconnect the fuel line. DEPRESS the clip on the fitting using very-firm thumb pressure, then push & pull the fitting away from the fuel rail.
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:05 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marde View Post
I learned the hard way that the fuel rail (with injectors attached) is stuck into the engine head due to o-ring age, dirt, gunk inside each injector cavity. The secret is to spray some penetrating oil inside each injector cavity, and then wiggle and shake and pull the fuel rail out. Scream at it too.

Many brands of penetrating oil to choose from, I think I used Liquid Wrench, but any brand would work. Even WD-40 is probably good enough.

Clean out the injector cavities after you get the rail off.

Each injector is attached onto the fuel rail with a unique thin metal ring locking clip. Good luck with that, mine were tricky, or I was too dumb, or both.

Lube each new injector o-ring prior to reinstalling into engine head. I forgot what lube type I used. Maybe it was dielectric grease. The injectors are reinstalled into the engine head as an assembly, aka with the fuel rail, aka just like you pulled the fuel rail off (with injectors attached).

Also, even after pulling the fuel pump fuse out, to depressurize the system, there is still enough pressure inside that will squirt & splash you when disconnecting the fuel rail fuel line. So have a rag ready to catch the burst of fuel. The fuel fitting retainer "clip" does NOT need to be removed in order to disconnect the fuel line. DEPRESS the clip on the fitting using very-firm thumb pressure, then push & pull the fitting away from the fuel rail.
Sounds good. Thanks
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:22 PM   #59
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Been about a month since putting in the new injectors. So far, so good. Thanks for everyone's input
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:04 PM   #60
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Been about 3 months driving in the Texas heat. Problem solved
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