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Old 06-03-2015, 08:43 AM   #21
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I believe this picture is a good representation of how it works.

http://engine-codes.com/uploads/images/3059.gif

When fueling, the gasses go through the canister and out the open vent. As the gasses pass through, the charcoal absorbs some of the HCs. When the car is running, the engine pulls a vacuum, drawing outside air through the canister. The hydrocarbons are released and get burned in the engine. My guess is that charcoal particles make it into the valve, eventually clogging it. I had an old dodge pick up with a slant six where I had to occasionally take apart the 1 bbl carb and clean out the charcoal that got sucked in from the canister which was under the hood.

I see the valve mounted on the end of the canister. Can someone explain how I can release the clips to remove it without breaking them? Looks like that is an issue.
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Old 06-03-2015, 09:21 AM   #22
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The service manual emphasizes several times that it is very easy to break the vent solenoid.

That pic and description are overly simplified, the operation as described would be a running vacuum leak.

Now after looking I'm even getting confused, the ORVR diagrams I'm finding show the canister VENT solenoid as normally open and why do you need a solenoid if the thing stays open?? Easier to be an emission leak that way too. Also, the ORVR diagram shown in the '02 Focus wagon service manual clearly shows pieces of equipment in the ORVR system that my car does not have. It does not show the filler vent pipe either.

'...charcoal absorbs some of the HCs.'

It better be absorbing a lot more than just 'some'. They failed cars here for 20 PPM and so small an amount as to be zero.
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Old 06-03-2015, 05:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete c View Post
I believe this picture is a good representation of how it works.
http://engine-codes.com/uploads/images/3059.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
That pic and description are overly simplified,...
Overly simplified, yes. Plus very misleading because it shows air-flow Arrows going in a direction that is impossible during refuel because the Purge valve is Closed during refuel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pete c View Post
When fueling, the gasses go through the canister and out the open vent.
Yes sir. I have found nothing to prove otherwise.

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Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
... the operation as described would be a running vacuum leak.
No it is not, but it will become a controlled & calculated vac leak when the PCM commands the purge valve to open.

Also, on a similar note, the PCM commands the Canister Vent Solenoid to close during; "seals the EVAP system for the Inspection and Maintenance (I/M 240) test and OBDII leak and pressure tests."

"OBDII leak and pressure tests" are the automatic tests being done by the PCM for Evap Monitor and ditto for PCM checking for evap gross leaks.

As previously stated/guessed, I believe my PZEV has additional controls that would prevent the canister from breathing-to-atmosphere when parked. Also, remember that there other control valves discussed little or not at all during this thread. Ref pic I posted on page-2. I might later go see if I can find a functional diagram and a How-Does-It-Work on the Focus PZEV system.


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... the ORVR diagrams I'm finding show the canister VENT solenoid as normally open and why do you need a solenoid if the thing stays open??
It does not always stay Open. It is Closed by the PCM for two or more reasons. See comments above.
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:03 AM   #24
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What's the second reason?

'No it is not...'

My response there was in relation to the operation there too simply described as both ends open with no control there, THAT would be a vacuum leak.....

Crow eating time for me.

Ever since they have put electrical solenoid valves on the canister itself I have assumed they had to be closed and that is WRONG. I wondered if they were open then just WHY did they add the solenoid as it then does nothing??? That all was based on a further assumption (mistake) that the PCM evap system leak test was based on pressure and now I've found it is based on VACUUM which changes everything. The solenoid would then be normally open instead of closed. It only gets closed when PCM commands it for system leak testing, and open the rest of the time.

http://www.alldatadiy.com/alldatadiy...5775/121016236

Look below the first pic to the 'evap canister purge valve no flow test' and the procedure there. That is a VACUUM test...........the PCM also does it on the fly.

My bad and I apologize to all, and thanks to Marde for pushing me far enough to dig further on the subject. My understanding expanded as well.

Still, I view most of the vapor at gas fillup as traveling up that vent pipe rather than going through the canister, the vent has less resistance than canister and much of the vapor is made while sluicing down the filler tube. As long as the bottom of tube door is emitting fuel into the tank it will be emitting vapors out as well, the pressure differential there. Like said before you can visibly see the vapor pouring out of the filler area and onto the ground, getting rid of the gas station vacuum requirement actually will be increasing HC emissions unless the newer systems actually becomes so good they can pass air through canister as fast as that vent pipe. They should be DROPPING the vent pipe on later models and making the filler tube fit the gas pump nozzle tighter, that will stop that and force ALL vapors to go to the canister. Sounds like they are going in that direction...........
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:21 PM   #25
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"Going in that direction" could show another reason for the capless fill system on the MkIII version, with tight fit to the nozzle. That one DOES have a vent to ground between the outside of the cap & the inner seal, proven when it drips with top up attempts. A way to prevent liquid fuel coming out the fill hole when that happens.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
What's the second reason?
...
The answer was in my last post. The reason for the quote-marks (below) is that I quoted another source. The words came from ALLDATAdiy.com.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marde View Post
...the PCM commands the Canister Vent Solenoid to close during; "seals the EVAP system for the Inspection and Maintenance (I/M 240) test and OBDII leak and pressure tests."

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
... the PCM evap system leak test was based on pressure and now I've found it is based on VACUUM which changes everything....
Not sure why that changes everything... pretty sure I read the system uses pressure and vacuum for the different types of on-board testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
... Like said before you can visibly see the vapor pouring out of the filler area and onto the ground, getting rid of the gas station vacuum requirement actually will be increasing HC emissions unless the newer systems actually becomes so good they can pass air through canister as fast as that vent pipe. They should be DROPPING the vent pipe on later models and making the filler tube fit the gas pump nozzle tighter, that will stop that and force ALL vapors to go to the canister. Sounds like they are going in that direction...........
I can not remember seeing a significant amount of seeping vapors from the filler neck since... many many years ago. Not sure you can either; especially since you have the VRS filling stations in your area. You should go back and watch that video again, the link you posted. I watched it a second time (yesterday) and it covers and answers a lot of what we are re-hashing here. ORVR does exactly what you just said, they designed the system with the filler tube smaller than older non-ORVR cars had. Furthermore, the quote at post-17 from the EPA document loosely says ORVR does a great job and VRS is un-necessary and/or redundant and is even a "dis-benefit" is some cases. You said "Sounds like they are going in that direction" but we already have. Only thing remaining to do is; getting those people with clear memories of 1970 vapors hitting the ground during re-fuel to realize where we are at today; and to see what is really happening with ORVR equipped vehicles.

Seems like ORVR handles most/all refuel vapors very well and is only stressed or maxed out during diurnal (siiting) periods.
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Last edited by Marde; 06-04-2015 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 06-04-2015, 10:42 PM   #27
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Gonna check that pretty quick......................don't think it has been many years ago but I cannot say when other than that. When in doubt, test, and test again.............hitting 92 or 93 this w/e in temps.

The system does have to hold pressure but I assumed the test was for not for such since looking here lately I have found nothing that says a specific test for it. May have just not tripped over it though. What I have found validates the vacuum idea and I always as well wondered about the pressure test as in, if the PCM wants to do one, just how does it artificially raise the pressure in the tank? I always had an issue with that before, just didn't pursue it out. Stupid me never thought about how easy it is to raise vacuum, simply close off system and let the fuel pump do it.

On an aside, made a smoke machine for the inevitable day, worked fine but the oil worked its' way into the heating element to burn and short it out, mods for that coming up.
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Old 01-24-2016, 10:02 PM   #28
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I suddenly developed the gas fill prob with no check engine light. Crawled underneath and pulled the vent hose off the vent valve and was able to blow through it. Took the vent valve off and was able to blow through it. Then I tried to blow into the canister and couldn't. Disconnected the tank hose from the canister. Took the three nuts off(one of the bolts broke off) and pried the damn thing out. Following the path of a Ranger owner HERE, I took apart the bigger of the two cans and found the clumped up 'moldy' pellets. Now I have to seal it up and reinstall.

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Old 01-26-2016, 05:37 AM   #29
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You can use charcoal from aquarium supply stores to renew the carbon there.
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Old 09-20-2016, 01:38 PM   #30
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I'm having problems putting gas in 03 focus. Doesn't seem to be any restrictions in vent line. Is there a screen in filler tube that may get clogged?
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