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Old 06-19-2015, 09:04 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junk_Poet View Post
Good job @dyn085. This should be a good learning experience.

The little fights here were lols and you kept your cool with calm explanations. Its all a bit disappointing that we all aren't here to support each other.
It didnt have much to do about supporting each other , people were trying to support him and give him ideas that are MUCH easier and what to look for , Let me show you what I am talking about

Some one anyone give me 1 paragraph telling me what the last post dyno made means , what it will do and what the end result will be , I am guessing no one can that hasent posted in here already , he is making things much harder then they need to be and no one is going to understand what he is talking about

Dont get me wrong , the idea of posting it here is great , other then the ones that posted in here if no one understands it , does it help anyone ?

Tom
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:06 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
It didnt have much to do about supporting each other , people were trying to support him and give him ideas that are MUCH easier and what to look for , Let me show you what I am talking about

Some one anyone give me 1 paragraph telling me what the last post dyno made means , what it will do and what the end result will be , I am guessing no one can that hasent posted in here already , he is making things much harder then they need to be and no one is going to understand what he is talking about

Dont get me wrong , the idea of posting it here is great , other then the ones that posted in here if no one understands it , does it help anyone ?

Tom
Try and understand the fact that these posts are mostly cut and paste posts from my other threads in the FiST/FoST communities. I share it here so that people can read it to either-

Kill Time
Learn Something
Ask Questions
Disagree
Discuss
Recommend Alternative Ideas

And so on. Literally, the only community freaking out and acting like this is some huge deal and arguing everything is this one. Ironically, this is the community that it is least-applicable to. And even though I lump everyone into the definition of 'community', it is very clearly only a very, very small portion of this general population.

Nobody owes you a paragraph or any other measurable amount of response. If they have questions they can ask, but most likely very few will because the majority don't own a ST. It doesn't make the thread any less valuable as the thread is simply for sharing. Maybe in the future another ST owner will decide to go with ATR and want to discuss it here further-who knows? Either way, that's not for you to decide or expect of others.

It's kind of difficult for people to fully understand anything that they can't directly relate to. I can walk you step-by-step through installing and adjusting flight controls in a helicopter, but you won't understand it because you can't relate. It won't make my information wrong, just confusing. Either way, I can create a thread about doing it if I choose to and people can decide to read it and/or post if they want.

So again, there's no point in you posting in here if your only concern is trying to put me down. You're not helping or even trying, and it's now a off-site joke that you seem to think you are. You've made exactly two posts (by my count, maybe three if I'm generous) that have been semi-close to helping, but every single other one has either been an attempt at putting me down, telling me that I need to use a dyno and also telling me that I don't, or completely wrong information that alludes to you not knowing tuning functions on the ST. Post whatever ridiculousness here you want, but don't be surprised when I respond.
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Old 06-20-2015, 12:22 AM   #63
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Shoot Guys, maybe only a few following it for interest but arguing about it ISN'T interesting.

I've only followed it a little as a dillettante - not reading all in detail or any of the supporting links for background.

Tom - without flipping back a page to look at it again in detail, IIRC the summary would be that he was playing in small increments with a spark table and ended up finding a separate OAR table would make compensating adjustments once his changes reached a certain level. Much more detail to it, but that was the gist I gathered. No need to comment on whether it helps anyone, like a "Build Thread" it's more for the poster and anyone who might be interested in reading.

Duane - the "ask questions, disagree, discuss,recommend alternatives" portion you mention is where it seems to fall apart. Almost all the posts in here are written in an "authoritative" tone, including yours, and the disagreements are more about the perceived internet "tone" than about substance.

As an outsider to it, I think ALL could watch their written "tone" a little closer to avoid offense, and not TAKING offense as easily is the counterpoint that might help even more.
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Old 06-20-2015, 01:11 AM   #64
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I try to avoid putting tone into my posts, but only people that literally know me will ever understand that. Like I've said, my main posts are literally cut/paste and posted identically across forums-but this is the only one where it's apparently viewed in a manner of being a challenge towards authority. I understand that people may be upset that my posts are written a certain way, but like I said-they are promoting good discussions elsewhere. It's very much a conversation that only makes sense to those that are tuning the ST with ATR.

I recognize that some of my posts are dry to the casual member, but I'm also e-tuning a Fusion and (once Cobb gets back with me) will be doing my FiST as well. I have friends that have asked specifically for me to outline procedures in as detailed of a manner as possible so that they may learn, so I am. My posts shouldn't be viewed in an 'authoritative' manner-they should be read more like textbooks. The only difference is that when people question the procedure it can actually be discussed and rectified on the spot if necessary.

And not textbooks as in 'this is the way' but as in the overall dryness and detail of their subject.

Anyways, my OAR hit -1 on the drive following that OAR post so I locked it in place and am now tuning with it in mind. I've also noticed and logged some interesting borderline clips as well, which I know some of my friends are going to be interested to see because they happen seemingly out of nowhere. My timing will be where I want it in another couple of runs and I'm thinking about breaking into the turbo controls...

In lighter (and more sobering) news, this is what it looks like when you hit standing water during a fourth-gear pull at nearly 5k rpm. I'm as safe as I can be given the situation, but it appeared very last minute and I was already committed.
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Old 06-20-2015, 01:27 AM   #65
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Interesting "shape" to that curve when you loose traction!

A long time ago now, but I never fully realized how much traction is lost to the front wheels when hitting puddles until driving a FWD car & having the RPM jump under power.

(BTW - did my short comment match the "gist" of the prev. post on OAR?)
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Old 06-20-2015, 11:39 AM   #66
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Pretty close. OAR basically monitors the knock sensors to make more permanent timing adjustments. Basically, if the KS's are adding lots of timing due to the fuel being substantially better than the tune, the OAR will recognize it and move from zero towards -1. Conversely, if the fuel is worse than the tune and the KS's are removing a lot of timing, the OAR will move from zero towards 1. This is all relative, so if OAR was at -1 and you had started using fuel of a lower caliber then OAR would eventually trend towards zero and vice-versa.

The OAR number is a multiplier that is used against separate tables depending on which side of zero it is on. Cobb has taken it a step further by also applying it to their global 3d timing offset within their switchable maps. So long as the base map is suited to work with the worst fuel at OAR 1, this will allow the ability to run everything from 87 octane up to E85 or race fuel (depending on how you establish your 5 map slots) all on one single tune. There's obviously a lot more that goes into that than just the global timing, but everything put together will work that way.

Anyways, this is my current understanding of the system. Once I get through this tank of fuel I'm going to re-enable the system and fill up with 87 to see how everything reacts and take one or forty datalogs to compare. I might be wrong on exactly which correction is applied and/or exactly how it's done, but that's part of the trial-and-error process. I'm probably going to rescale the learning modifier to see how that affects everything as well.

Here is the short tech article from Cobb- https://cobb.app.box.com/ford-oar
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Old 06-20-2015, 12:37 PM   #67
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That'll make tuning a single item at a time more interesting (grin).

Starting with one of their "octane specific" tunes, you'd need to keep any timing adjustments to where it still automatically adjusts to -1 OAR to match the rest of the tune. Timing that is optimum at zero OAR wouldn't match the rest that's aimed at -1.

Sounds confusing in print, to put it another way the octane specific tune when used with matching fuel results in automatic adjustment to the -1 OAR setting. "Optimized" to work with full automatic adjustment to that end rather than at Zero.
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Old 06-20-2015, 01:32 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
That'll make tuning a single item at a time more interesting (grin).

Starting with one of their "octane specific" tunes, you'd need to keep any timing adjustments to where it still automatically adjusts to -1 OAR to match the rest of the tune. Timing that is optimum at zero OAR wouldn't match the rest that's aimed at -1.

Sounds confusing in print, to put it another way the octane specific tune when used with matching fuel results in automatic adjustment to the -1 OAR setting. "Optimized" to work with full automatic adjustment to that end rather than at Zero.
That's actually where it got really interesting. Because I went from 93 to 87, I loaded up the 87 OTS tune. They don't have a stage 3 87 (who uses that crap with those mods?) so I had to load the stage 1 87. No problem, because that should be much softer than a stage 3 87.

Tons of negative correction. I tried to force OAR to make a change, and nothing was happening. The only map lower was the stock emulation, so I just limited the KS strategy on the 87 and tuned around it. Once I lowered the timing out of knock I limited boost and basically put it up as it's a last-resort sort of scenario.

Because there was no 89 octane tune, I started with a stage 3 91 that I knew would need some softening. Again, I couldn't force the OAR so I finally just started to drop timing manually. At one point I became frustrated that my changes didn't seem to be drawing the negative corrections in fast enough so I did a full two-degree drop of all of my borderline tables and on the next 5-min log OAR suddenly jumped to -1 (from 0) within a few short hills while on cruise. That was the scenario where I went from no negative corrections at 0 OAR to getting small negative corrections at -1 OAR.

I've put a request in with the FiST community to see how the learning modifier is set up on that platform because it's significantly faster. My FiST learns within a couple of normal accelerations whereas the FoST can take up to two weeks of normal driving without being forced. Realistically, forcing OAR isn't the best way to do it because you're intentionally staying within the parameters to make the change as opposed to moving through them into areas that you might actually knock.

Interestingly, while testing the system I ran 87 octane in my FiST on a 93 OTS tune and never saw a change until I really beat on the car-and even then the change was fleeting. The system definitely works, I just need the comparison to see why the FiST works faster. Oddly, the stage 3 map seems excessively soft on the FiST as I was still seeing plenty of positive correction in conditions that I shouldn't have.

Because I'm using the exact same fuel, between the cars' OTS tunes it basically means that either the FiST tune is soft, the FoST tune is aggressive, or their overall learning/application strategy is different.

Where it gets more complicated is how different tuners use (or don't use) the OAR. Stratified appears to be using it in the manner that I'm working, which is having one tune run multiple fuels as the OEM system does. Some tuners don't seem to care about the system at all while others are having their customers run around finding fuel to meet the -1 OAR (or worse, using 93 octane to run their 91 tunes). It's interesting to watch from the sidelines considering how much control there is to alter the system with ATR.
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Old 06-20-2015, 01:49 PM   #69
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The Cobb literature:http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...com%2Fford-oar seems to refer to the OAR adjustment strategy you saw with the FoST.

Makes it quite interesting to have two different versions for comparison.
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:55 PM   #70
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I got a response for how the OAR learning strategy is applied to the FiST. I made changes to the FoST table to illustrate how it looks. It's pretty clear now why the learning is so drastically different between the cars-

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