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Old 06-09-2015, 11:05 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
I dont agree at all , I am guessing your calling "e-tune" as remote tuning ? , I want to clarify this before I say more

I also 110% do not agree that a "load dyno" is whats needed

Corrected what I ment to ask , e-tune not e-dyno

Tom
Well I've already tried clarifying a couple of times, but I can take another shot.

Yes, e-tuning is referencing remote tuning, tuning via the internet, road tuning, etc. I'm lumping all of them into the same category for this discussion simply because they all have one thing in common-the inability to have a specific and constant/consistent load applied through a controlled source. Every single professional reference that I've looked at, whether in books, through internet searches, or from talking with experienced tuners has agreed that the absolute best starting point for a custom tune starts on a load-bearing dyno.

That doesn't mean that e-tuning/road tuning doesn't work or can't be done, simply that it's easier and significantly more accurate and consistent to start on a load-bearing dyno. Load-bearing dyno to establish VE, load-bearing dyno to establish accelerator enrichment, load-bearing dyno to spark-hook and establish MBT and timing curves. Once everything is put together and verified on the dyno, a drive on the road should merely be a check on the overall effectiveness of the tune, with very minor polishing-if any at all.

Like I've said, this doesn't mean it's the 'only' or 'needed' way-just the 'preferred' way. Using an inertial dyno or road as the primary means of transmitting load can be done, it's just more difficult and time consuming, and less accurate to-boot. Over-simplified for discussion.
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Old 06-09-2015, 03:02 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyn085 View Post
Well I've already tried clarifying a couple of times, but I can take another shot.

Yes, e-tuning is referencing remote tuning, tuning via the internet, road tuning, etc. I'm lumping all of them into the same category for this discussion simply because they all have one thing in common-the inability to have a specific and constant/consistent load applied through a controlled source. Every single professional reference that I've looked at, whether in books, through internet searches, or from talking with experienced tuners has agreed that the absolute best starting point for a custom tune starts on a load-bearing dyno.

That doesn't mean that e-tuning/road tuning doesn't work or can't be done, simply that it's easier and significantly more accurate and consistent to start on a load-bearing dyno. Load-bearing dyno to establish VE, load-bearing dyno to establish accelerator enrichment, load-bearing dyno to spark-hook and establish MBT and timing curves. Once everything is put together and verified on the dyno, a drive on the road should merely be a check on the overall effectiveness of the tune, with very minor polishing-if any at all.

Like I've said, this doesn't mean it's the 'only' or 'needed' way-just the 'preferred' way. Using an inertial dyno or road as the primary means of transmitting load can be done, it's just more difficult and time consuming, and less accurate to-boot. Over-simplified for discussion.
We will have to agree to disagree on this point , I spent 1000`s of dollars making mine a load bearing dynojet and it was a total waste as the tune turned out the be the exact same tune as with the STD dynojet or with load turned off

25 year ago this may of held more weight in the tuning world , I have done tuning both ways and I can say this

When on a load bearing dyno in most cases your loading the engine with more load then it would ever see at a given RPM

When your out on the road tuning at a given RPM is exactly that , your load , its the load the YOUR engine/ECU sees , how more perfect of a tuning condition could you get then an exact load reading for that given RPM

You dont need steady state load with your engine unless going up a very steep grade with a 30+ mph head wind all the time

I have spent thousands of hours tuning the Focus , perfecting remote tuning and takes time and a lot of understand how things work , respond , which logs to request for diff issues , etc etc etc

Thats my opinion

Tom
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:43 AM   #33
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Fair enough. I can recognize that I don't have the experience to fully say in any direction, just realize that you are literally the only person I've heard that disagrees. And again-I've never said that it can't be done on the road.

Anywho, my latest cut/paste-

In the sake of sharing as much information/processes as I can in as much of a detailed manner as possible, I'll post my overall process related to evaluating my datalogs. Before I do that, I'm going to re-cover and expound on some of the things I'm doing and my reasoning behind it. Keep in mind that I'm learning the process as well, so this is the type of information that I hope helps people understand why I make some of the decisions I make before trying to see exactly what data I've collected and how I arrived at a particular change. Always feel free to add to or correct anything I present.

Earlier I described what I've learned of the general tuning process and contrasted it against the Cobb tuning guide. I've since outlined how I've gone in a different direction, and without the car in my presence I have the time to outline why. In short, the general tuning process is applicable to all engines when starting from scratch and the Cobb guide is starting with a known engine and set of calibration and characteristics. Here's a very short breakdown of the important parts of the combustion process data and a few of the main functions/modifiers within-

Volumetric efficiency (VE) is the fundamental building block of the process because all other calibrations are made off of it. If you make a fuel decision under the assumption of a certain mass of air that is wrong, your fuel mixture is going to be too rich or too lean. Because your mixture is too rich or too lean, your spark is going to be either too advanced or retarded. Because your spark is too advanced or retarded, the resulting efficiency of the combustion is not going to be optimal and you're either throwing fuel away or not using enough-and neither of those situations are optimal for your wallet and engine longevity.

Luckily for us, we are in a more advanced era of engine management. Our wideband 02 sensor measures the incorrect AFR and reports back to the ECU that we're either using too much or too little fuel so that the calculations can all be adjusted and keep us safer. This shows up in your long term and short term fuel trims (LTFT/STFT). Using the same VE reference plugged into the HDFX tables combined with the resulting AFR's measured by the 02 sensor, the ECU can now increase/decrease the amount of fuel issued and fall-back on the spark baseline to ensure accurate combustion, and if it has done the math correctly then the resulting AFR should be correct to what is being requested.

We can further complicate that process by understanding the use of the knock sensors (KS), which are constantly monitoring for specific frequencies that the engineers have calibrated as being associated with knock (or even the onset of knock). As the KS is almost continually monitoring, the information that it is/isn't picking up can be fed back into the ECU allowing for advance or retard of the spark to further optimize combustion. With the assistance of the KS's, the system will operate within it's timing base/ceiling to try and keep combustion as close to the knock threshold as possible because that is where the most power (and, in-turn, efficiency) is made.

While typing and reading that the overall scenario seems very simple, and if you break it down as such it kind of is. If we had fixed cams, no turbo, and utilized a mass airflow (MAF) calibration, I can see where this process would be significantly simpler and after using ATR for a couple of weeks I can understand why every experienced tuner that I've spoken with has stated how much more difficult this engine management system is compared to what they've seen or used previously. Conversely, I also understand why they all love it because with the additional complication there is an extended and associated level of control.

That's an extremely simplified explanation, and I'm sure that those with ATR can attest. In short, I don't feel comfortable making VE changes quite yet because I wanted to address my knock issues first. This is mainly due to the fact that I want to make sure the car is safe for a long distance trip at any moment (I understand that that sounds ridiculous) and need the ability to use different fuels because 93 won't always be immediately available. Because of this everything that I have done has been ignition-related, so my logs and method are built around that. There are a multitude of other adjustments and modifiers, and I'll try to cover them as I move along while presenting my data/methods. Some of them are limiting or skewing my data as it is, and I'm going to talk to someone this weekend about the cost of scheduling dyno time and will come up with a plan for making that time efficient. First I obviously need to have the car in my possession and secondly I'll need to play with and understand live datalogging/tracing/flashing. I have a general idea, I just haven't actually used it yet to put ideas into action.

So that's a very brief overview. Because I'm starting with spark my data will be related to that, and I'll try to cover how the parameters logged are used and relate to each other, why I'm logging them, what information it is giving me, and how that factors into my changes/decisions. Once my ignition tables are where I want them and I'm back on 93 octane I will be going back to the beginning and addressing VE, which will obviously affect all of my changes and will cause me to roll through ignition again in the future. My VE on the FoST isn't 'far' off and it's been shown to not be a 'necessary' change up to and including stage 3 upgrades, but it's a process and exercise that I must learn so I'll obviously be working through it-even if the changes are minute.
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:31 PM   #34
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Ok, I think this link should work. I was hoping to break it down individually as I highlighted each region, but that was going to get ridiculous regarding time and aint nobody got time fo' dat. So I'll try to break it down as best as possible below with a completely highlighted chart.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I haven't been doing much WOT work at all on the 87/89 tunes and the majority of my ignition changes have been below the curve, but I follow basically the exact same process for all-the only difference is that each datalog is taken under a predetermined set of conditions (i.e.-specific rpm, certain load/rpm sweep, WOT, 5-min normal driving). Before doing too much WOT work you should consider making changes to your fuel delivery, mainly in the name of safety. Also worth noting is the fact that all of my timing changes have been done on the actual borderline tables and not within the switchable maps (which I intend on beginning shortly). Finally, my KS advance is turned down to 2 degrees to allow me to walk in corrections slower as opposed to constantly bouncing off of the knock threshold.

Ok, so you're looking at a chart full of colors. I'll break it down based in the order that I highlight them. And yes-I do actually highlight my charts, though I tend to only use the yellow and I only highlight rows/columns as a whole. I ultimately found that I was making incorrect decisions based on sliding up or down a cell from what I needed, and the highlighting corrected that deficiency. This chart has different colors and individual cells simply for discussion.

The first thing that I do is highlight the Ignition Correction (usually all four are logged) and Load Actual columns. The Ignition Correction columns are going to immediately show you the areas that need improvement (if you're logging something other than WOT), and the Load Actual column is one of the axis' on the table that you will need to locate individual cells. I do this on every ignition datalog.

After highlighting those two columns, on a WOT log I go over to the Engine RPM column and scroll down. At every intersection of RPM values that correlate to the borderline tables, I highlight the row. In this particular chart I've only fully highlighted two rows, #4 and #72, because they are the boundaries from which I will be making changes (due to the 100% Accel. Position), but normally those would not be highlighted and every row with the RPM highlighted in green would be fully highlighted instead. Note the fact that the majority of the time you're not going to log a specific RPM, so I pick whatever falls closest to what I'm looking for that correlates with the ignition tables. If you rescale your tables you would obviously pick whatever fits your current resolution.

With those two columns and applicable rows highlighted, you have the information you're going to need. From here you will just read on over into the actual ignition that was recorded for each cylinder and make your change based on what was being delivered at the time. You can half the distance from the base to the lowest cylinder, you can punch in exactly what the lowest cylinder reads, or (in this case) you can completely ignore the lowest cylinder and target something different. Make some changes, save the affected changes across all tables, load it up and go test it out. Depending on your KS strategy and fuel, you could do this a few times before starting to see knock. Conversely, you could see it on the first pull and have to immediately retard.

It is worth noting a few things here-

A) Having multiple logs will assist in making more accurate corrections here. As you can see by this log my #2 cylinder was acting up, but normally it's my #4 that is weak. Not many changes would be made if I went by the #2 cylinder in this instance, but because I'm familiar with the history of my car I would skip that cylinder when making changes. The more you datalog and evaluate the more you'll see trends and have information to base your decisions off of.

B) The red highlighted numbers in column U are the timing ceiling, and you won't advance above that without changing whatever is holding you back there. I prefer not to, but there are many people that raise the ceiling as much as they raise the base. I'm obviously not near it on this crap fuel, but I ride it for the last 1k rpm or so on 93. If you're against the ceiling it will be noted in the Spark Limit Source column (highlighted in AA 75 on down) to identify exactly what table is limiting you.

C) I adjust all of my 1.4 and higher loads to be the same across all 16 HDFX tables. This is common amongst the community and the first 40 rows of data explain why, but from row 41 on you should have a good idea as to why I don't make sweeping changes across the lower load areas of all 16 tables-they're normally not all used at the same time. Collect a log of normal driving with all 15 HDFX Weight monitors and you'll quickly understand. In fact, I would go as far as saying to not even worry about collecting HDFX while doing WOT datalogs simply because it will give you better resolution in your datalog, but for every other type of driving you should.

D) I highlighted a couple of borderline clips in AB4 and AB7. This could be from a poor transition between tables (not likely given the HDFX Weights) or from not having the best fuel transition from punching the throttle or from the sudden cam change messing up the VE model. It's worth looking into when you see them, but you can't always correct for it to my understanding. I'm still looking into more info for that.

So that's basically it, I think. Again, this is strictly for optimizing ignition and if you go back later and make additional VE or fueling changes this most likely will need to be readdressed. There are a multitude of strategies to use when approaching this, and be cognizant of the fact that there are additional timing compensations within ATR that could be skewing your results depending on the environment. When in doubt make smaller corrections than you would like and work up-it's significantly easier than dealing with a datalog that has knock compensation.

I can post examples of the other types of logs if anyone would like, but it basically follows this exact breakdown, just with changes to the data-collection process and what I'm ultimately looking for within each type of log that I collect.
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:32 PM   #35
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A breakdown of the changes made from the datalog above.

Here is the base table I'll be working with. Again, it doesn't really matter because the changes would be applied across all BL tables from 1.4 load on, and the only cylinder I'm looking at (due to cumulative experience) is cylinder 4-



Due to the log, we're beginning with this area of the table-



This entire section of table was referenced/utilized in one second (rows 2-9), and according to the HDFX weights every single table had some influence, no matter how minor. Because the cylinder ultimately hit the timing asked and because of the borderline clips, my initial assumption is that the issue is going to lie in my fueling-not the timing. I will leave this area alone currently.

Rows 10-21 all show the cylinder hitting the timing asked, without corrections. This is another area that I will leave alone.

Shortly after I pass 3500 rpm in row 21, I begin to see timing additions made in row 22. Due to the resolution of the table we are still in the 1.8+ load, and because we're transitioning up to 4k we can rightfully assume that that cell is low. It's worth noting here that the cylinder is only showing 1.9 degrees advance and that the timing base is 1.4, even though the cell shows that I'm asking for 2 degrees. I'm not currently going to be concerned with what is actually compensating the table because I know the history of the car and the limited amount of correction that I'm allowing with my KS approach, so I'm going to go ahead and add half a degree of timing at 4k.



At this point (where I've made a change) on other logs I might consider blending surrounding rows, but it's only half of a degree of timing and there's plenty more data so I'll hold off on that for now. At row 35 you'll see that half a degree was pulled from the advance. Because of this I'm going to hold off on making a decision at the 5k mark and proceed to 6k, because the timing adjustment made at 4k will affect the next pull in this area as well. At row 48 we can see that we have now begun to fall below the 1.8 load row on the table, so we'll have to take the 1.6l row into account as well.

At row 58 we are now at 6k and almost fully at 1.6l. According to the datalog, we are now at least 1.5 degrees shy of what we could be running in that cell. I say 'at least' simply for the fact that in another roughy 200 rpm the advance adds another half a degree of timing. Because of this, I'm now going to add a full 1.5 degrees to that cell-



Now it's time for blending. Because of the cells that I've altered, this is the area that I'm looking at blending-



We want to see smooth transitions within the table, so I'm simply going to math out the different directions in an attempt to make them flow better. Not every cell has to be adjusted, simply work within what you feel comfortable with. Because I'm using the 1 load area for the math, it would really help to have already made the required changes to the 1 load area of the table by having done a 1-load rpm sweep. Theoretically you would have already established your timing curve in those rows far before having done WOT tuning. Either way, this is how my changes would ultimately look to this table-



Copy/paste the 1.4+ load section across all maps, save the file and load it up to the car, go out and test again to evaluate the data. When I actually get serious about WOT tuning I will rescale my tables, but hopefully this gives a decent idea of my overall thought process and how I use the information to arrive at my decisions.
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:18 PM   #36
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How are you hitting 1.8 load ? what size does he/you have the engine set to ? 1.8 load would be in the 400+HP range , it doesnt really matter just curious why you have your load set so high ?

Tom
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:21 PM   #37
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I hit well over 2 load because I haven't re-scaled the tables. I have literally only made minor fuel and ignition changes to the OTS maps.
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:08 PM   #38
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You dont want to be hitting over 2.00 or 200% load it can cause all kinds of issues

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Old 06-13-2015, 10:00 AM   #39
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I don't even know where to start...
I don't know how Tom has limited his comments, or even keeps commenting.
I understand you are trying to learn, but you are writing this as you DO know what is going on.
You need to stop writing this a technical dissertation on what to do and more of a description of your experiment.

There are many issues with the way you are doing and your assumptions.
Since you don't know exactly what is going on with HDFX weightings and cylinder spark advance,maybe assume that a large amount of time has gone into creating this production calibration, just open up the knock sensor authority, run premium with Rislone octane boost and be done.

Where did you get the assumptions you are using???
Did you notice the time stamp? You are getting erroneous spark data based on time stamps and the values are taken from each processing loop in the PCM. Basically you will get different values per cylinder as the engine transitions between rpm and loads. You need to find the parameter that is described as Spark Advance Final TOTal...get the hint... This is the final spark value that is scheduled. The knock sensor values are combined before this value is scheduled.

You need to log the individual KS cylinder adder to determine which cylinder(s) are getting more spark, or in a knock condition. Check your reference material and find those parameters.
That will show you which cylinder is getting spark changes based on the knock sensor. You should be able to use that data in a better way than with the inconsistent ignition timing cylinder# parameters you are logging.

Loads of over 2.0 on the turbo motors hold no consequence in this strategy. The non turbo strategies (SVT) are not designed for loads over 2.0!
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:25 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulg127 View Post
I don't even know where to start...
I don't know how Tom has limited his comments,
Its been very hard not to , but best thing is let him learn on his own , there is many other things I would be logging and doing different but with our previous history I dont think he would listen

I just changed a load file for borderline spark to 500% load in a ST strategy and it took , Interesting and thanks , always willing to learn , I had not changed that before to see if it would go past 200% , I am all the time having to forget pre 2012 tuning for these new ECU strategy's as I am finding many things different

I opened a 2013 non st and they also will go about 200% in the Y norms so I find that interesting , till I try one I wont know what effect it has in NA strategy if any

I still feel is he sets the load in borderline spark closer to the power he is making the loads would more reflect what he is doing and would make tuning the spark a little better , about 1.5 or 1.6 and spread the rest out a little more , I find it a little better any way

Tom
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