Self-Tuning to ease the boredom. - Page 2 - Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum
Ford Focus Forum
HomeContact UsAbout UsGalleryDiscussion ForumsMarketplace


Go Back   Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum > Ford Focus Tech Discussions > Focus Tuning Chat

Focus Tuning Chat Discuss performance tuning options for your Ford Focus.

Search This Forum | Image Search | Advanced Search    
FocusFest

Like Tree34Likes
Reply




 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-04-2015, 01:26 AM   #11
That Guy
 
dyn085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fan#: 98047
Location: Vancouver, WA
What I Drive: 2014 FiST/FoST

Posts: 13,634
Points 67,787, Level 100
Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100
Level Up 0% Completed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Forum Activity 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
FF Reputation: 54 dyn085 Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Changes to the " global timing " ? So all you doing is " User adjust " to an already dont tune ? I thought you were actually tuning

I thought you liked E fuels ? lol

Tom
I figured you would eventually come in here and post some crap. You seem pretty adamant about people not reading tuning books written by professional tuners so I can see why you wouldn't want people watching or participating in a self-tuning thread.

If you would have read the thread at all then you would know why I'm working with 87. And maybe you don't understand what I'm doing relating to tuning, but that's ok because I'll start making things clearer soon. And yes, I do like e-fuels but again, like I've told you repeatedly in the past, I don't have immediate access. I've already created my tables to run various e-blends in a separate tune, but I can't do anything with it without fuel...
__________________
FocusFest 2013: Best of Show
Gateway FFW: Show Class Outstanding
September '13 ROTM
2014 FiST-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by dyn085; 06-04-2015 at 07:14 AM.
dyn085 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-04-2015, 08:02 AM   #12
That Guy
 
dyn085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fan#: 98047
Location: Vancouver, WA
What I Drive: 2014 FiST/FoST

Posts: 13,634
Points 67,787, Level 100
Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100
Level Up 0% Completed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Forum Activity 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
FF Reputation: 54 dyn085 Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (5)
I'll expound on the 'user adjust' comment. In-short, I'm using global timing reduction simply to find a start-point for the junk fuel that's in it. Again, this is a worst-case-fuel map to fall back on in the unlikely event she should ever have to. I would rather create the map and her never use it than not create it and have catastrophic results in the unlikely event that she should need it. But as a professional tuner, you shouldn't need this explanation.

Here are some shots of ATR and how I would get to the point of making a change to a Borderline Timing ignition table, for those interested. This is how I would get to the Optimum Power map, which is interestingly enough not used.
Here is the overview of what can be changed-

After selecting the ignition tables folder, I now have these options-

Here's every option in the borderline tables opened up. Besides the 16 main tables, I can rescale the main tables for better resolution, make changes to OAR or Open Loop (the engine is actually run in Closed Loop 100% of the time, but the maps are labeled as such for adjustment/use understanding) compensations, rescale OAR/OL tables for better resolution, or simply make changes to an individual or all 16 BL timing-


Each timing map is based on an HDFX weighted percentage, which are volumetric efficiency tables based on intake and exhaust cam angles (also adjustable and something I'll be working with once my base maps are established). Once you know what percentage of what HDFX take you're using (they blend in percentages against each other) you can then determine what changes you make based on load and rpm.

The Borderline Tables are only one of four spark sources and there are many more sources of limiters and ceilings, along with individual cylinder compensations and so on.

Just one example of the relatively small (lulz) amount of user-adjustability afforded by Cobb, and they are still working to enhance and expand the system.

Aside from calibrating fuel AFR's, the ignition tables are literally the only changes I've been making, all based around my cylinder four and it's overall bad attitude towards its role in life.
__________________
FocusFest 2013: Best of Show
Gateway FFW: Show Class Outstanding
September '13 ROTM
2014 FiST-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dyn085 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2015, 09:39 AM   #13
FF Affiliate
 
1turbofocus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Fan#: 1123
Location: Belmont, NC
What I Drive: 2000 ZX3 / 2002 SVT Turbocharged

Posts: 30,092
Points 100,853, Level 100
Points: 100,853, Level: 100 Points: 100,853, Level: 100 Points: 100,853, Level: 100
Level Up 0% Completed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Forum Activity 89%
Activity: 89% Activity: 89% Activity: 89%
FF Reputation: 160 1turbofocus Excellent Standing Member 1turbofocus Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (31)
You should never change the global timing , If you have the ability to change the correct borderline tables load vs RPM then thats where you should make the changes

Keep in mind that even tho you may have multiple tables to change the timing , the final # will be the lowest timing # in that cell between all the spark tables MBT , MAX ,Borderline etc

1) I am not against people reading and learning tuning , I know 99% of the people that try it fail badly because people read post like this and say " Hay I can do that " and they try it and find out quickly thet there over there head , yes there has been a few like iminhell that has done great with it , most you never hear from again , they give up and contact a tuner to do it for them or sell there car because they cannot even get it to start
2) all the books you listed do not cover the complex ECU/PCM in the 2010+ Fords and does little to tune as far back as 2002 and none have enough info to 100% safely and fully tune a Focus

The 2012 ECU is a Windows 10.1 , the 2005 ECU is a commador 64 , Pre 2005 ECU is pong lol to put it in a way people might understand , Most books out there are for the Pre 2005 ECU and cover very little to actually fully tune a Ford

The MK3 ECU/PCM is an extremely complex ECU which your fixing to find out if you keep on the path with the timing your doing ,

The ST has a global spark retard for each Cyl 1,2,3,4, are you using by Cly or the the scalar global spk retard where if you remove say 2 deg you take out 2 deg from idle , cruise and WOT which you shouldnt be doing as it removed timing in places that timing doesnt/shouldnt be removed

The ST has 15 Borderline knock tables , how do you know which one the ECU is reading from and which one to make changes to or are you just changing the only one that shows up , why is there 15 tables ? what does each one do ?

I would do a lot more reading and a lot more testing before making blanket statements about "tuning" that others may try
Dont get me wrong , I think everyone should try these kind of things but you need to understand what each thing does and have the FULL tune file , your just stubborn enough to get it all to work but look into the full files , a lot more testing then you will see what I am talking about

Tom
__________________
Focus-Power: Your #1 Source for Ford Focus Speed, Tuning & Performance!

Customer Support
AIM: hpdyno
Email:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Phone: 704-249-3745
Site:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Elder 1turbofocus
1turbofocus is online now  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-04-2015, 11:19 AM   #14
That Guy
 
dyn085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fan#: 98047
Location: Vancouver, WA
What I Drive: 2014 FiST/FoST

Posts: 13,634
Points 67,787, Level 100
Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100
Level Up 0% Completed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Forum Activity 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
FF Reputation: 54 dyn085 Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (5)
I appreciate your response as this is the type of discussion that should be happening in this community-especially with the number of years that it's been around. These are the types of discussions that have been happening in the FoST community since it's inception, and I'm slowly getting the FiST community engaged in them as well. I've broken your post up into different pieces to address items specifically in a less-confusing manner.

Quote:
You should never change the global timing , If you have the ability to change the correct borderline tables load vs RPM then thats where you should make the changes
I'm making a tune for a worst-case fuel scenario based on a fuel that shouldn't even be used. I have to use global timing to get the base map into a safe condition to even begin. And as it turns out, this 87 is horrible to begin with-especially when combined with the ST's cylinder 4 problems.

Quote:
Keep in mind that even tho you may have multiple tables to change the timing , the final # will be the lowest timing # in that cell between all the spark tables MBT , MAX ,Borderline etc
Yes, I monitor spark source and spark source enum to know exactly what tables are being used as baseline and ceiling.

Quote:
1) I am not against people reading and learning tuning , I know 99% of the people that try it fail badly because people read post like this and say " Hay I can do that " and they try it and find out quickly thet there over there head , yes there has been a few like iminhell that has done great with it , most you never hear from again , they give up and contact a tuner to do it for them or sell there car because they cannot even get it to start
2) all the books you listed do not cover the complex ECU/PCM in the 2010+ Fords and does little to tune as far back as 2002
1) Most ATR users are probably like me and just like to dabble. There aren't necessarily a 'ton' of self-tuning members in the ST community, but there are enough that we get our own section of the forum. Plenty of them are like me and already have had a tuner create a tune, we just got bored and needed something to satisfy our curiosity. A few have gone on to get hired with tuning companies because they learned the system and did so well with it.
2) Nobody is looking for a step-by-step book for tuning the ECU. Tuning is a process that for the most part can only be generalized, and generalized tuning books apply to all.

Quote:
The 2012 ECU is a Windows 10.1 , the 2005 ECU is a commador 64 , Pre 2005 ECU is pong lol to put it in a way people might understand , Most books out there are for the Pre 2005 ECU and cover very little to actually fully tune a Ford

The MK3 ECU/PCM is an extremely complex ECU which your fixing to find out if you keep on the path with the timing your doing ,
I've been well-aware of this since before I even bought the vehicles. There is not a single person that I know that is either currently or was previously a tuner that has not remarked on how much significantly harder these ECU's are. Once they get the feel of things, however, they are all excessively happy to have so much control-that same control that you and iminhell don't seem to think is available with the software.

Quote:
The ST has a global spark retard for each Cyl 1,2,3,4, are you using by Cly or the the scalar global spk retard where if you remove say 2 deg you take out 2 deg from idle , cruise and WOT which you shouldnt be doing as it removed timing in places that time doesnt/shouldnt be removed
I'm not messing with individual cylinder timing, I'm tuning around my weak cylinder.

Quote:
The ST has 15 Borderline knock tables , how do you know which one the ECU is reading from and which one to make changes to or are you just changing the only one that shows up , why is there 15 tables ? what does each one do ?
16 tables, but the HDFX weighted monitors tell you exactly which table and to what percentage it applies to the overall final base timing. The HDFX monitors are representations of different intake/exhaust cam angle combinations, so depending on where your cams are (along with load and RPM) the ECU can decide exactly which value (actually, a combination of values) of which map and to what percentage it should be used. The ECU chooses the lowest of the BL, MBT, PI, and CP timing maps (34 total, I think) and uses the lowest base, and then tries to stay between there and the lowest ceiling of MBT, PI, and CP.

That's the abbreviated version, it's a bit more complex than that.

Quote:
I would do a lot more reading and a lot more testing before making blanket statements about "tuning" that others may try
Dont get me wrong , I think everyone should try these kind of things but you need to understand what each thing does and have the FULL tune file , your just stubborn enough to get it all to work but look into the full files , a lot more testing then you will see what I am talking about

Tom
I'm not making blanket statements (maybe I am, I'll have to re-read what I've said) that I'm aware of, I'm simply outlining my learning process while tuning for others to read. This exact thread on other forums has received praise and offers of tuning advice from professionals should I need it. I literally had to specifically thank Stratified and basically ask them not to post unless they see me doing something dangerous in order to allow me to learn on my own.

I have a very specific set of objectives to meet before being concerned with trying to create the best possible tune, which I've already outlined. I need to ensure that my car is safe at all times and there are redundant safeties in place in the event that I go back overseas. Once those fundamentals are laid and I have a better grasp at what I'm doing then I'll expand, but right now I'm solely concerned with having good (not optimal) timing without knock or negative corrections. I can't stress that enough-I'm only shooting for ignition safety across multiple fuels at this very second.

I've had ATR for less than two weeks and may have already found a temporary fix for a problem that has existed in the community for two years under conditions that they didn't exactly understand yet, and at worst it will give a bit more cushion for the community to find the actual solution to the cylinder 4 problem. That (safety), in and of itself, was the primary deciding factor in me buying the software to begin with. I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt that my 93 tune is officially safer than any other tune available to me right now.
__________________
FocusFest 2013: Best of Show
Gateway FFW: Show Class Outstanding
September '13 ROTM
2014 FiST-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dyn085 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2015, 01:56 PM   #15
Old Phart
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Fan#: 57268
Location: Lockport, NY
What I Drive: 2013 Black 5-spd SE Hatch

Posts: 44,596
Points 33,746, Level 100
Points: 33,746, Level: 100 Points: 33,746, Level: 100 Points: 33,746, Level: 100
Level Up 0% Completed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Forum Activity 21%
Activity: 21% Activity: 21% Activity: 21%
FF Reputation: 135 sailor Excellent Standing Member sailor Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
GOOD thread on the journey to experiment with Tuning.

Happy to see it come back from the edge of argument to more useful discussion.

Good & bad, what works & what doesn't, the most useful portion IMHO is the commentary on "walk before running" or experimenting with the "safe" end rather than jumping over the cliff into attempts to increase power for the first experimentation.

Tweak one parameter (spark) for a better match to engine requirements to reduce reliance on automated adjustment response to bad results - fine tuning in a positive direction & plenty of learning.
dyn085 and Junk_Poet like this.
__________________
"Rubber Side Down"

S.R. #275
Focus Takeover #003 / Tarbo Fan #003
sailor is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2015, 01:59 PM   #16
That Guy
 
dyn085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fan#: 98047
Location: Vancouver, WA
What I Drive: 2014 FiST/FoST

Posts: 13,634
Points 67,787, Level 100
Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100
Level Up 0% Completed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Forum Activity 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
FF Reputation: 54 dyn085 Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (5)
I like that you can condense all of my word-vomit into simple English, Roger. It's a skill that I absolutely lack, and every time I try to say things simpler it only gets worse for some reason. And fwiw, I'm absolutely serious about that.

Okay, more cut/paste-

So I've been piling and compiling the data from yesterday looking for trends/similarities, issues, etc., while working with this crappy fuel and I realized a couple of things-

A. My pen sucks.
B. I'm doing lots of simple math manually, and that takes a lot of time and thought.

I don't know why I'm only just now realizing this, but because I'm following a certain process and relying on certain data within an Excel spreadsheet, I can probably reverse-engineer it into a simple workbook that would allow me to copy certain rows of data and let the program do the calculations. Theoretically, that would allow me the ability to copy whatever specific rows I was intending on using manually, paste them into the workbook, and let the math plot corrections into multiple tables at once. Obviously this means that datalogging would have to be pretty precise for the correct input (trash in equals trash out), but it works in my mind.

Maybe I've over-simplified it to the point that it actually becomes more difficult, but if it works then I would be able to share it and it could simplify the process for others. I'm only talking about ignition as a whole and this has nothing to do with any other facet of tuning, but there is already an Excel sheet (I haven't actually used it yet) for VE and this would ultimately really be no different...

Just thinking out loud. Feel free to weigh in your thoughts.
__________________
FocusFest 2013: Best of Show
Gateway FFW: Show Class Outstanding
September '13 ROTM
2014 FiST-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dyn085 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2015, 03:13 AM   #17
Focus Fanatic
 
papaacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Fan#: 111083
Location: Willows, CA
What I Drive: 2013 Performance Blue ST

Posts: 9,258
Points 14,230, Level 77
Points: 14,230, Level: 77 Points: 14,230, Level: 77 Points: 14,230, Level: 77
Level Up 45% Completed
Level up: 45% Level up: 45% Level up: 45%
Forum Activity 5%
Activity: 5% Activity: 5% Activity: 5%
FF Reputation: 17 papaacer Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (3)
I am definitely keeping my eye on this and want to keep updates coming as they happen. Dont expect me to chime in but rather lurk mainly because this is something interesting. Great job Duane.
__________________
https://d1juqo69tkizbw.cloudfront.net/b1fa678c-0250-4577-a27d-2faead0b0b2d.large.jpg
https://d1juqo69tkizbw.cloudfront.net/b1fa678c-0250-4577-a27d-2faead0b0b2d.large.jpg
papaacer is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2015, 01:38 PM   #18
Focus Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Fan#: 237762
Location: Aston, PA
What I Drive: 2014 Nissan Juke NISMO RS AWD

Posts: 567
Points 1,818, Level 25
Points: 1,818, Level: 25 Points: 1,818, Level: 25 Points: 1,818, Level: 25
Level Up 18% Completed
Level up: 18% Level up: 18% Level up: 18%
Forum Activity 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
FF Reputation: 1 Scougar Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Same as papa and sailor's comments, will be lurking, and glad to see you guys actually talking about the issues rather than arguing. Let's get her done!
__________________
2012 Titanium - Traded in.
Scougar is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2015, 08:42 AM   #19
That Guy
 
dyn085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fan#: 98047
Location: Vancouver, WA
What I Drive: 2014 FiST/FoST

Posts: 13,634
Points 67,787, Level 100
Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100 Points: 67,787, Level: 100
Level Up 0% Completed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Forum Activity 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
FF Reputation: 54 dyn085 Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (5)
New books for reading-


I finally got through that tank of 87, and the resulting tune will do what I need but not much more. I tried making ignition changes on the OTS 87 tune, and it seemed that no matter what I did I couldn't get it to play well with my finicky cyl 4. I ended up having to scrap the work I put into it and load up the stage 0 tune and go from there. I only ever messed with the ignition timing and hit the 'turbo-off' button. All I really wanted the tune to do is not knock, and it will do that (mostly), so it will serve it's function for now. Maybe I'll revisit it in the future once I have a better idea of what I'm doing.

My cylinder 4 is really frustrating me because it acts up a lot compared to the others, so I'm just tuning for it and letting the other cylinders do their own thing, though I took the KS advance down to 2 degrees to not let them completely walk away.

Either way, I started working on my 89 tune yesterday (I only just found out that I don't have access to 91, lulz) and it's been much more pleasant to deal with than the 87. I started with the OTS stage 3 91 octane tune and have been making minor ignition adjustments to stay out of knock. I think it's as close as I need it to be for now, so I'm going to try and do some VE and HDFX work/adjustments today. Super-baby steps as I'm still learning how everything functions individually as well as together.

I really like the Banish books.
__________________
FocusFest 2013: Best of Show
Gateway FFW: Show Class Outstanding
September '13 ROTM
2014 FiST-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dyn085 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2015, 10:51 AM   #20
FF Affiliate
 
1turbofocus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Fan#: 1123
Location: Belmont, NC
What I Drive: 2000 ZX3 / 2002 SVT Turbocharged

Posts: 30,092
Points 100,853, Level 100
Points: 100,853, Level: 100 Points: 100,853, Level: 100 Points: 100,853, Level: 100
Level Up 0% Completed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Forum Activity 89%
Activity: 89% Activity: 89% Activity: 89%
FF Reputation: 160 1turbofocus Excellent Standing Member 1turbofocus Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (31)
Do you not have the ability to change by spk advance by Cyl , also do you have adjustments for the knock sensor sensitivity settings by Cyl , there is a lot of interesting settings for the knock sensor by cyl you should look into as well as individual spk advance by cyl vs blanket borderline changes , and they really help

Tom
__________________
Focus-Power: Your #1 Source for Ford Focus Speed, Tuning & Performance!

Customer Support
AIM: hpdyno
Email:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Phone: 704-249-3745
Site:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Elder 1turbofocus
1turbofocus is online now  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks & Social Networks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
What I Drive
Year, color, and model of your car. Example: 2003 Focus Centennial Edition Sedan
Name
Your real name.
City
State
Country
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:15 PM.


Copyright 2002-2015 FocusFanatics.com. All Rights Reserved : : Advertise Information

Focus Fanatics Ford Focus Forum offers many fun ways for you to engage with other Ford Focus Owners from across the world. Whether it be about the aftermarket performance modifications, technical how-to's, European tuned suspension or awesome fuel economy similar to the Mazda CX-3, Audi S3, Mazda MX-5 Miata and Acura TLX. You can find all Ford Focus, Focus ST and Focus RS related information here. Join our Ford Focus discussion forums and chat with local Focus enthusiasts in your area. If you own other makes have a look at Challenger Hellcat Forum, Charger Hellcat Forum, Cadillac ATS-V Forum, Cadillac CTS-V Forum, Lexus RC-F Forum, Lexus GS-F Forum, Mercedes GLA Forum, Mercedes GLE Forum and Volvo XC90 Forum.




 

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1