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Old 05-21-2017, 12:40 PM   #61
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I figured that was the case. I was just wondering if those improvements were somehow show on the Dyno results. I will be putting it on my mod list. Right now, I'm saving up some coins for the tune.

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Old 05-21-2017, 05:23 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by FFhb13 View Post
Tom, I know you saw the cosworth knockoff had the exact same loss on the mk3, despite having a much smaller and different shaped plenum and even slightly longer ports...why are you taking it off, because either design may actually work much better on a FI motor..the TTR seems to be designed to work great under boost pressures, instead of vacuum in a NA application.
Regardless of NA or boosted at about 3600 it starts loosing 1-3hp and by 6500 lost 19hp , I dont want to have to make up a 19hp loss at 6500 when I can keep the 19hp at 6500 and add to that with boost

Just because you have boost your still adding what the boost does to the NA HP/TQ and doesnt mean a intake that was bad for NA will work better in the same RPM with boost

If I ran my cosi intake with 10psi boost at 6500 and made 200hp with the stock intake it would be north of 15 hp more at 6500 in the 215+ range

Tom
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:48 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Regardless of NA or boosted at about 3600 it starts loosing 1-3hp and by 6500 lost 19hp , I dont want to have to make up a 19hp loss at 6500 when I can keep the 19hp at 6500 and add to that with boost

Just because you have boost your still adding what the boost does to the NA HP/TQ and doesnt mean a intake that was bad for NA will work better in the same RPM with boost

If I ran my cosi intake with 10psi boost at 6500 and made 200hp with the stock intake it would be north of 15 hp more at 6500 in the 215+ range

Tom
If I'm reading this correctly, I have to disagree here Tom.

I believe I've read everything you've made public, and I don't recall that you tested your Cossie manifold in a tit for tat comparison with the stock manifold did you? Without directly testing, how do you know at equal boost, all other mods similar, it wouldn't pick up a good bit of HP in the upper RPM band?

Fluid-dynamics tells us that a forced induction environment completely changes characteristics of the engines powerband(duh, just look at the dyno graphs), and the airflow the engine will take most advantage of as far as plenum and port shape/length. In an efficiently boosted application, bigger everything will lead to better top end numbers. You may sacrifice some off-boost drivability (which you said up to 3500 was unaffected anyway), but the top end efficiency of airflow will make it all worth while if power is what you're after.

While an N/A intake manifold is tuned using port length and size to take advantage of airflow harmonics, mass quantity is what you want when there's a device pushing air into the biggest, most directly feeding reservoirs you can fit under the hood.

These manifolds that are out there aren't necessarily useless, they just aren't tuned to the N/A motors' harmonics as well as the likely millions of dollars of testing Ford threw at the composite stock manifold. Under boosted applications, the aftermarket manifolds will most likely shine.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:32 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Slo86GT View Post
If I'm reading this correctly, I have to disagree here Tom.

I believe I've read everything you've made public, and I don't recall that you tested your Cossie manifold in a tit for tat comparison with the stock manifold did you? Without directly testing, how do you know at equal boost, all other mods similar, it wouldn't pick up a good bit of HP in the upper RPM band?

Fluid-dynamics tells us that a forced induction environment completely changes characteristics of the engines powerband(duh, just look at the dyno graphs), and the airflow the engine will take most advantage of as far as plenum and port shape/length. In an efficiently boosted application, bigger everything will lead to better top end numbers. You may sacrifice some off-boost drivability (which you said up to 3500 was unaffected anyway), but the top end efficiency of airflow will make it all worth while if power is what you're after.

While an N/A intake manifold is tuned using port length and size to take advantage of airflow harmonics, mass quantity is what you want when there's a device pushing air into the biggest, most directly feeding reservoirs you can fit under the hood.

These manifolds that are out there aren't necessarily useless, they just aren't tuned to the N/A motors' harmonics as well as the likely millions of dollars of testing Ford threw at the composite stock manifold. Under boosted applications, the aftermarket manifolds will most likely shine.
Could not have agreed more. A good NA manifold is not always a good FI manifold. Most likely complete opposites.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:35 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Regardless of NA or boosted at about 3600 it starts loosing 1-3hp and by 6500 lost 19hp , I dont want to have to make up a 19hp loss at 6500 when I can keep the 19hp at 6500 and add to that with boost

Just because you have boost your still adding what the boost does to the NA HP/TQ and doesnt mean a intake that was bad for NA will work better in the same RPM with boost

If I ran my cosi intake with 10psi boost at 6500 and made 200hp with the stock intake it would be north of 15 hp more at 6500 in the 215+ range

Tom
I completely disagree with this. That is the same thing as saying a header adds 10 hp, intake adds 8 hp, exhaust adds 12 hp, and total add is 30 hp...
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:20 PM   #66
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Maybe it doesn't make a difference, but Tom stated he never adjusted or even tried to adjust the VVT advance or retard of cam timing or changed the plenum volume (to represent the larger size) during tuning of our manifold. In past applications, both topics had a significant change in how power was made. I think it is viable that further testing of our manifold is done, with these adjustments. We will look into tuning options in the future for our manifold.

He stated these adjustments would make no difference, which we have a hard time believing. That is like saying Ford added VVT to the focus, and never spent time to adjust the VVT to the specific engine/manifold/exhaust manifold/etc. doesn't seem to make sense not to adjust and see how it would respond.
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Last edited by TurboTechRacing; 05-21-2017 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:05 PM   #67
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Maybe it doesn't make a difference, but Tom stated he never adjusted or even tried to adjust the VVT advance or retard of cam timing or changed the plenum volume (to represent the larger size) during tuning of our manifold. In past applications, both topics had a significant change in how power was made. I think it is viable that further testing of our manifold is done, with these adjustments. We will look into tuning options in the future for our manifold.

He stated these adjustments would make no difference, which we have a hard time believing. That is like saying Ford added VVT to the focus, and never spent time to adjust the VVT to the specific engine/manifold/exhaust manifold/etc. doesn't seem to make sense not to adjust and see how it would respond.
Glad to hear you guys are still looking into making this work. Hopefully down the road with some testing you can make these make power on the na car.

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Old 05-21-2017, 09:06 PM   #68
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I completely disagree with this. That is the same thing as saying a header adds 10 hp, intake adds 8 hp, exhaust adds 12 hp, and total add is 30 hp...
I think he was saying that because the cossie manifold lost 20hp so he would have to first make up that 20hp where as the stock manifold would have that 20hp loss to make up.

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Old 05-21-2017, 09:08 PM   #69
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Glad to hear you guys are still looking into making this work. Hopefully down the road with some testing you can make these make power on the na car.

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We are taking further design, and testing locally. Along with tuning options. Seems to be an eye opener when 2 completely different manifolds, where both designs have proven history, lost equal power. Something is happening at 3500 rpm and up, we are going to find out what the cause is.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:10 PM   #70
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I think he was saying that because the cossie manifold lost 20hp so he would have to first make up that 20hp where as the stock manifold would have that 20hp loss to make up.

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Which is not true in fluid dynamics. When air is being pushed, it acts different than pulled. I think it would have been best to test both back to back at the same psi, and not just assume and toss it to the side.

Right or wrong, just would have been solid data, not just assumed.
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