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Old 03-20-2018, 11:46 AM   #101
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Apologies if this is buried in this thread and I didn't see it, but why did Ford use a 192 and why is a 180 going to do anything of real value?
There must be some sort of trade off for this switch. If it was all good, wouldn't Ford have simply used a 180?
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:25 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Yes, that all adds up.

IMHO it's always good to remember Factory objectives in design when modifying for a different one. Virtually all "mods" are two sided, there's a loss for every gain even if only the extra expense. Most are a fairly direct trade off, the simplest example is ride quality vs. handling when selecting spring rates for suspension (and even there you can go too far for your objective).

Emissions being a fixed requirement, some decisions there are forced on the manufacturer. Short exh. manifold to CAT is an example, as that's the easiest way to get the CAT up to temp & working fast so far. Heated O2 sensors are only needed to get the feedback loop fueling up & running fast for the same emissions reason. Extra fuel & air injection are also used to "light off" the CAT by burning in it to heat it up fast.

Whether all of those make sense for overall emissions isn't the question. The standards are set to make having it fully operational fast the prime objective. (trade off decisions are fixed)


Normal emissions objectives when warmed up require both lean operation & 'cool' burn to reduce oxides of nitrogen. That's why things that don't otherwise add up like EGR get used. EGR by whatever method including valve timing puts "inert" gasses into the cylinder. That reduces the fuel needed for the oxygen present, and 'cools' the combustion product overall. Full volume of the engine cylinders isn't needed at cruise RPM for power, and the inert portion reduces the effective volume used for combustion. (maybe not a perfect description, but good for basic description of the objective)

Engine runs on the ragged edge of even firing at that point, the reason anything not being perfect leads to stumbles.

Much of this ends up with opposing objectives/results. We all know that lean burn (minimum emissions) ends up hot, the EGR does 'chill' that.

Hotter engine helps in a number of ways, from fuel vaporization for more efficient use of less fuel (less wasted as inflammable liquid) to the thermal expansion of cold air inducted. Even keeping the oil cleaner with less fuel & water contamination helps with emissions, as less oil ends up carried along with the contaminants when the vapors are burned (emulsion of contaminants/oil).

For added power/safety of the engine much gets reversed with the "cold" thermostat. You want to burn more fuel/air mix and have some leeway in temps for lean burn heating as limits are approached.
Here you go, bud.
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:19 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNaughtyLemur View Post
Here you go, bud.
Thank you to TheNaughtyLemur!
I understand the concept of tossing pennies in a jar until you get to $1. All the little things can begin to add up.
I can't imagine that swapping to 180 will make enough power difference to be worth messing with the design intent of Ford engineers.
Modders, of which I am one, simply enjoy messing with our cars. This feels like an easy task that we all can do, and that may be the attraction for many. Unless Tom tells me there is any real benefit when I see him for a tune, I'm likely to skip this little mod.
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:28 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STR5Guy! View Post
Thank you to TheNaughtyLemur!
I understand the concept of tossing pennies in a jar until you get to $1. All the little things can begin to add up.
I can't imagine that swapping to 180 will make enough power difference to be worth messing with the design intent of Ford engineers.
Modders, of which I am one, simply enjoy messing with our cars. This feels like an easy task that we all can do, and that may be the attraction for many. Unless Tom tells me there is any real benefit when I see him for a tune, I'm likely to skip this little mod.
There is a real benefit to adding the 180 to your Focus when added with a tune to optimize the 180 with Fans coming on sooner

Any time you lower the engine temps with in a reasonable amount you 190-200 vs 215-230 you make the engine safer , lowers the knock threshold meaning less chance of knock , most cases increase the MPG and performance , lower under hood temps etc etc

There is 0 downside from going to a 180 deg thermostat , I HIGHLY recommend the mod

Tom
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:34 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STR5Guy! View Post
Apologies if this is buried in this thread and I didn't see it, but why did Ford use a 192 and why is a 180 going to do anything of real value?
There must be some sort of trade off for this switch. If it was all good, wouldn't Ford have simply used a 180?
Now to answer this question which sailor covered , Ford has to hit an emissions criteria where they have to have an engine meet X requirements at startup and why cruising this is done easier by making the engine hotter

Your engine will still go into the temps for good emissions and all other requirements , heater will still work the same and as fast as a 192-196 would

Theirs no downside to a 180

Tom
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:47 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Now to answer this question which sailor covered , Ford has to hit an emissions criteria where they have to have an engine meet X requirements at startup and why cruising this is done easier by making the engine hotter

Your engine will still go into the temps for good emissions and all other requirements , heater will still work the same and as fast as a 192-196 would

Theirs no downside to a 180

Tom
Thank you for the replies!
I am now informed and better for it. This is why I recently joined FF.
I guess a new 180 thermostat will go on my to do list.
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Old 03-20-2018, 02:15 PM   #107
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Because the chance of knock is minimized, is the engine better able to use premium gas and thus can make more power? As long as properly tuned? Or will it make the same power on any grade of gas as long as the tune is appropriate?
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:27 PM   #108
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More timing doesnt always mean more HP/TQ but a cooler engine to a point always means more performance

On premium a cooler engine properly tuned has proven to make gains in HP/TQ

Tom
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Old 04-01-2018, 08:46 PM   #109
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I installed the 180 thermostat today. It really isn't as hard as I imagined after reading some posts. There are different strategies for access, but I went with removing the headlight(2 screws and 1 electrical plug) and it worked out very well. Removing the hose clamps and getting the hoses lose was the most difficult part. Everything else was very simple and quick. I used a 6" extension with wobble tip and short 8mm socket to get the housing bolts off(this was actually very quick and simple).
Tomorrow I will finish running out the 87oct fuel and put 93oct in it for a few days, then install Tom's base tune(followed by datalog and tweaks). No way I'll know the impact of doing the 180 thermostat, but Tom says do it, so I did.
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:53 AM   #110
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Anyone have a recommendation for a mechanic in Greater Cleveland, OH to do this type of install as well as flush the cooling system? I'd love to think I'm going to have the time to do myself but when I do, never seems to get done and since I'd prefer not to have it done at the dealer, I'm in the market for someone.
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