Focus Fanatics Forum banner

Poll: DTC

8K views 83 replies 25 participants last post by  FordFailus2016 
#1 ·
Hello,

I just purchased a 2015 Ford Focus SE Hatchback with the infamous DTC.

I love it so far. Took it on a country road at 6 am on a Sunday and tour up the roads of central maine. The car performed great. I use the manual shift 85% of the time. Ironically the Free press article came out 2 days after I purchased it and gave me a bit of a scare. I spent a whole day of researching and have come up with a conclusion.

How many of you were explained by the dealer how the DTC works and how it can't be driven like a normal everyday automatic transmission?

IMO I think the transmission is great but wears early and cause problems because of bad user driving habits and the fact that Ford never explained that it should be ( in layman's terms) driven like a manual.

Thoughts, comments, concerns??
 
#2 ·
It's not an automatic, so it shouldn't be labeled as one. Dealers should be educated on this, not just tell customers that they ain't driving right. One gave me this attitude and I didn't bother taking a 2014 Focus SE.

But since most people don't have a flippin' clue between what is a DCT/CVT/toque-converter automatic, what do I know...
 
#3 ·
A good percentage of ppl just want a automatic, throw it in drive & let it shift for itself.... Your correct on many ppl don't have a clue, but then why should they? Why should they have to shift it? I've driven a few of the early ones & a later one, put yourself in what the mass ppl want & it sure isn't a this trans.
 
#5 ·
This. It is completely unacceptable for Ford - or any of the various buffoons on the internet - to claim that people should be driving their cars differently.

Yes, the DPS6 is what it is: a dry DCT. It's going to feel different than a slushbox, even if you ignore the defective components found in earlier models.

Ford clearly knew that customers did not want a dry DCT that felt like a dry DCT, otherwise they wouldn't have tried so hard to "fix" the DPS6 with programming. While I think it's Ford itself - not the dealerships - who are most at fault here, it was downright deceptive to sell the DPS6 as an "automatic with better fuel economy".
 
#6 ·
Maybe it was deceptive of ford to sell it as a “automatic with better fuel economy” but you also have an obligation as a consumer to at least partially understand what you are buying. It’s a relationship between companies and consumers. If a company makes something, and you and other consumers don’t like it and don’t buy it they won’t make it anymore.
 
#12 ·
This condescending "blame the victim" attitude is getting old and you're missing the point so badly I can hear the whoosh from here.

People did "at least partially understand" what they were buying. They understood that it was not a traditional automatic and that it would feel at least a little different. Heck, the dealership explained very clearly to me that the DPS6 was a DCT (they did not get into dry vs wet, though). So how much more do you think people should "at least partially understand"? By all means, tell us all how much of an engineering background John and Jane Smith should have before they go to buy their econobox.

While we're at it, I knew perfectly well what I was buying. I didn't need a clueless salesman to tell me anything; I knew the DPS6 was a dry DCT. I knew the difference between wet and dry. What I did not know is that Ford was knowingly selling a defective product and lying to everyone about it. Somehow the salesman forgot to mention that...but I guess that's on me for not asking?

Every car is different and how you drive it is sometimes the difference between life and death or a very expensive repair cost or not.
This might be the stupidest thing I've ever read. I think we're all quite aware that an F-350 might drive differently than a Fiesta and that driving one as if it's the other could be dangerous. But if you're suggesting that two cars of the same general size and design (you know, comparing apples to apples as well as we can) are different enough to justify a fundamental change in driving behavior...that's ridiculous.

The Focus is not a new car. It's a compact economy car. The overwhelming majority of folks looking at the standard Focus (not the RS or ST) has no reason to think they need to fundamentally change the way they drive. Sure, no two cars will drive exactly the same. I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise.

What folks are saying is that Ford actively marketed it as a more fuel-efficient automatic transmission. And let's be honest: the only "automatic" the average person going in to buy the Focus has only experienced is a slushbox. Ford knew this. Ford knew that if you told them they had to drive it differently, they wouldn't buy it. So Ford told them it was effectively the same - which might have been true had Ford performed some marvel of engineering - but wasn't true because the DPS6 is a steaming pile of donkey crap that feels significantly different after a couple of thousand miles are on the transmission. This means that it feels substantially different after owning it for only a short while than it did during the test drive; a modern, functioning slushbox does not generally change so drastically so quickly.

Don't get me wrong, it's Ford's responsibility to explain to the consumer that it is different from a normal automatic. I'm not trying to take any blame away from them. I believe they have to do something about it. I'm just saying let's not blame the transmission for being misused.
Man, some people are dense.

The transmission is defective. If you've read the Detroit Free Press article, you'll remember that even the Ford engineers did not believe it was ready for implementation in 2011, let alone years later when it was still being used and the fundamental design issues had never been addressed.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that Ford should take responsibility for poor design and lying outright, and yet we should in fact blame the consumer for driving it wrong.

Maybe you're just naïve. Come back after your DPS6 craps the bed and you're in for your second or third clutch pack. Then tell me that we should in fact blame the victim for "misusing" the transmission they were lied to about.
 
#7 ·
No, it is an automatic. I don’t have to clutch whenever I want to switch gears.
And yes you do have to learn how to drive your transmission, just the same way you learn where and when to brake on your favorite canyon road so you don’t end up in a guard rail or over the edge. The idea that you shouldn’t have to learn how to drive a car that you buy is ridiculous. Every car is different and how you drive it is sometimes the difference between life and death or a very expensive repair cost or not.
 
#13 ·
The idea that you shouldn’t have to learn how to drive a car that you buy is ridiculous. .
Ha. No. It's not some exotic car that requires special handling. It's a FN econobox with a non-manual transmission, so it SHOULD be like countless other non-manual vehicles built for many decades. Put it in D and go. To expect owners to research how to drive a freakin' Ford Focus is laughable.

Ford took a massive dump with this trans and it killed an otherwise pretty damn good car for the money. No way to spin it, and no way to blame owners.
 
#9 ·
Don't get me wrong, it's Ford's responsibility to explain to the consumer that it is different from a normal automatic. I'm not trying to take any blame away from them. I believe they have to do something about it. I'm just saying let's not blame the transmission for being misused. I enjoy the feel of it and it brings a driving experience I haven't had in a long time.

I bought my 2015 with 38k and there's no evidence of a clutch replacement. I understand by 2015 a lot of the "bugs" where filtered out of the DTC transmission but so far so good

I hope Ford does the right thing but in today's world the consumer will be blamed and it's unfortunate for the people unknowingly buying this product not knowing what they were into
 
#10 ·
Kind of ironic that they designed these cars with DCTs so that they would be more economical but if you drive them in an economical fashion, you're doing it wrong and will damage the DCT. I personally don't drive mine like a grandma but sometimes when you are in stop and go traffic, you can't drive it in a way that keeps the clutch problems at bay.
 
#11 ·
OP you should have done your homework better. Hope you bought it cheap.
I’ve driven manual transmissions for 40 years, this drive it like a manual line is bs. I shift my manuals early and max mileage. Smooth and easy. The idea that you have to thrash the dct is bs. Might help a poor design, but it’s not how manuals are required to be driven. Just Ford and dealers trying to deflect responsibility.
 
#14 · (Edited)
If your getting bad gas mileage or gears slipping all the time then I would assume the transmission going out. If your getting random shuddering every once in awhile that's just the reality of this transmission. People that beat there cars and don't know how to drive these are obviously decreasing the life of the already known DTC problems. Ive put almost 60,000 miles on my 2013 ford focus sedan with minor shuddering everyonce in awhile. Other than that just normal maintenance. I hate the thin paint and the rims peeling more than the minor shuddering. Current miles on car 112,000. Love my focus and hate the shuddering to but if you drive these halfway decent there good cars.
 
#15 ·
I'd think some of the blame goes to the consumers, not doing their research, ect, as well as Ford putting a product out like this w/ a faulty trans on a otherwise decent vehicle. No one else to blame but yourself....Kinda like living in flood plane areas, buying appliances, knowing the difference in roof shakes vs shingles for your area/climate, or figuring out which way your house faces in the morning vs afternoon sun. Do ppl not know or even care about or what?
 
#16 ·
I have a 2012 and it doesn't matter if you drive it according to what the manufacturer recommended what the sales personis to tell the buyer which by the way came after the fact. If I am going 10-15mph and brake real hard it sounds like the clutch plates start scrubbing or if I come to an intersection and make a right hand turn when I have the right away and if I don't allow the transmission to down shift I get the same scrubbing noise so you learn to live with it and try to baby it as much as possible. I bought mine in 2016 only to learn a year later from the dealer history report the previous owner had the clutches replaced and put a for sale sign on it and oh the carfax did not disclose this. $2000 later and I still have the same problem.
 
#18 ·
Let's separate 2 different issues here:

1. Dry DCT vs true automatic. Did Ford tricked you into believing DCT = Automatic? Maybe. Is it your fault for believing and not researching enough? Maybe. One can argue both ways. IMHO this is a separate debate and everyone has to decide for themselves. I bought this car knowing what I'm signing up for (DCT)

2. Failing DCT. This is the real culprit here. Plain and simple - for end user shouldn't matter why - DCT (not just Ford's btw) are failing way too often, way too soon. Would be nice if Ford was more open and direct, own their design faults, provide better warranty/service etc.

2.1. Ford trying to coverup item 2 by bringing up item 1 (it's not really failing - it's you driving it wrong) - BOOM, everyone goes ballistic.
I know when my DCT acts up. You know it. They know it. Cut the BS, Ford.

2.2. Some people are now using 2 to argue 1. Something along the lines of "DCT can never be fixed, Ford owns us automatic"... Again, each case is different, but let's be honest - there are some folks who try to play the victim card to their advantage.


To recap - I would be perfectly happy with working DCT. I would be just OK (not supper happy) if Ford owned the fact that DCT fails and offer free DCT swaps throughout extensive warranty extension (my warranty expired at 60k, late 14 model?).
I am not OK with Ford/Sales people covering up DCT failures as something else, regardless what their pitch is. But I am also not OK with people claiming that Ford owns them more than just working DCT.
 
#20 ·
Well put Yanik. I'm just a little confused about the end where you talk about possible acceptable remedies. It is unclear how long you are saying Ford should continue to replace the DCTs. In my mind, it should be for the life of the vehicle. Those affected are already inconvenienced by having to have this done as a regular service procedure (mine three were only at about 10K mile intervals). Small passenger vehicles often go to their demise at the junkyard with still functioning transmissions so these transmissions should be expected to last the life of the vehicle. I hope they can come up with something better than the continued madness of dealing with these DCTs. They should probably focus on a replacement conventional automatic transmission fix. Continuing to just replace DCTs has got to be more expensive than that.
 
#21 ·
To the OP - If you really believe what you have posted answer me this. Why did Ford choose to switch to a normal torque converter automatic in the face lift 2015 Focus in all of it's global markets except for the North America (USA & Canada) market?

Bottom line is dry dual clutch transmissions fault is thermal. The drivers who live in the country with no stop and go traffic & flat geography will have the best luck with this type of transmission.
 
#35 ·
For me heat has to be playing a large part in this. The question I have though that Ford engineers must know the answers to is why a new clutch set doesn't screw up in the same hot conditions. We've recently had a new clutch set, are well into the Houston heat and humidity and all is smooth. Is it a coating on the new clutch faces that wears away eventually?.....or just a few thousand miles wear on the new clutches is enough to bring back the shudder? I've seen posts from some folks who have shudder return after only 20 K miles.
 
#23 ·
I hate to break it to everyone who thinks you have to drive it like a stick shift.... explain to me how you drive it like a stick, I understand that it’s not a conventional auto but it is definitely it a manual, I been driving only stickshift for 8 years till I bought this focus in 2013 and i still go back and forth driving both cars. Again how is it possible to drive an focus like a manual?
 
#26 ·
You anticipate the shifts, so instead of applying a steady acceleration off a start, you give it a bit more juice, then lift up a bit allowing it to shift, then push it more. Just like you would with manual. That's how I do it, hope this makes sense
 
#24 ·
I have a 2012. Until recently, I just thought it was an automatic. I didn't know anything about it, and I actually know about cars. I started hearing about the issues with them, and that's when I found out. Had I known in 2016 when I bought it, I never would have. Now it is lawn art and Ford is refusing to fix it. They want me to pay $5,200 to fix THEIR mistake.
 
#36 ·
Just like with computers, or anything else, if you have a thermal problem it does not go away by itself.

I did a little experimenting last night, and there is a consistent way to "anticipate" the shift points, and that is by forcing it. A little more on the gas pedal than you might normally will keep it in gear for a bit longer, and when you lift, the car will upshift. Then back on the pedal, and you're good. So can it be done? Sure. It's annoying, and I can't se driving that way becoming a habit for me.

I had to deal with nasty slow traffic for my commute yesterday, too. A section of the freeway was closed off because of an accident, and everyone had to funnel into an offramp. Traffic at a crawl for 45 minutes. I tend to let the gap in front of me build up a bit, then move, but doing that, as soon as there was room for a car in front of me, someone would cut into it, so my DCT got a little extra wear. I wasn't happy. That's not a solution, and wouldn't have been how I did that even in a car with a real manual transmission. I cannot force the DCT to be fully engaged as I'm creeping along at 5km/h, though I can in a real manual.

Well, being that I'm not a mechanical engineer, I can't say for sure what the problem is. I can take the information that I have and speculate. It is entirely wrong to place the entire onus of driving to accommodate the car, rather than the car accommodating the way we drive to be safe in traffic. When driving on public roads, my first priority is to adapt to road and traffic conditions for the safety of myself, as well as everyone else on the road. It is NOT to try to adapt to special needs of my vehicle. It is how well the vehicle adapts to the conditions typical to general use that determines how well it is designed, and in this regard,t he DCT is an abject failure.
 
#39 · (Edited)
To defend a company that sold you a defective product is ridiculous. They deserve serious financial harm, and it needs to go to you the consumer.
I highly suggest some of y'all listen to Clark Howard he is a financial and consumer advocate.
Maybe he could teach you how terrible companies are to their customers how little they care about you.

I'm a car guy but I don't expect a senior citizen grandma, or a soccer mom, or someone who's not into cars to know how a particular transmission works. It may not be a hydraulic automatic, but it is automatic by definition as it does the function for you.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 
#40 ·
Post #35, #37..............the clutch wears to begin to fray the outer lining slightly, that leads to a not knowing of exactly how thick it is then leading to not knowing just exactly where the point in space is for X amount of power transferred at a certain point. A new clutch has a certain pretty close point of engagement, that all becomes very blurry once the disc begins to fray the lining, the true engagement point then becomes very much wider for the computer to fumble around trying to guess at it. Varied temperature affects that wildly. Add one disc having to be in time with the other doubles that error to be totally unpredictable. Heat expanding the lining makes it worse.

There is really never enough wear alone to make a disc run hotter. Most discs tend to be considered worn out at only .030" of material missing off of them; it's simply not enough to run hotter based on that alone.

I don't know what the clutch disc looks like but if it has a marcel feature to shock absorb or the clutch pack itself has a cush section to do the same that likely gets pounded flat in the case of marcel or the other method gradually gives up from repeat applications and that would then absolutely add to the problem of predictability over longterm use too.
 
#41 ·
Ford totally forgot the primary rule of a product, it is to ease the life of the user not to make it harder for them to do a thing. Then they backed it up MUCH worse by claiming the driver had to learn to fit the car not the other way around. The person that came up with that policy needs to be fired as in a long time ago.

Corporate hubris of the highest order.
 
#42 ·
When a Ford tech tells you that the vehicles are designed (programmed) to make the car launch "more comfortably" what do you think is going on? The car is riding the clutches.

I'm not here to talk down to people. Insinuating this is a true automatic transmission is idiotic though. It has shift forks, clutch packs, etc. It is a manual internally, okay?

You can ride your clutch in a manual for a while before you start to pay for it. I got into an argument recently with someone who kept telling me Ford wouldn't program it this way because of what it has cost them. Okay, but then *why* did Ford keep producing the vehicle?

This same transmission (6DCT250) is found in several Renault vehicles, and my research indicates that their version doesn't have shudder issues. I can't find a thing that indicates it's any different a trans. I'm next to positive the shudder is a result of bad programming. I don't think new clutch packs would fix the issue even temporarily otherwise.

Yes, I did happen to buy Tom's tune, and yes I'm still dealing with shudder unfortunately. However, I put 31,000 miles on my clutch packs prior. That's a LOT of slipping and shuddering. I wish to be shudder free. May not be possible. I'd like to see someone with fresh clutches and a tune tell me what's going on 30k miles later.

Now, is it possible that poor clutch material could result in shudder? You better believe it. I think you could blame a small portion of shudder on this.

People have asked: If it's this simple, why hasn't Ford changed it? Well go ask Ford. They market it as automatic. They program it to shift as close as possible to a true auto. They wanted it this way obviously, right, is that it?

Tom isn't a genius and this isn't a miracle. The computer replaces the driver. Something is wrong with the computer

Thanks for reading my essay!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
#43 · (Edited)
Completely agree that programming is 90% or more of the issue. I have driven manual trannys for 36 years. I have always gotten more than 150k miles out of a clutch, some of those miles driven by a previous owner when I bought used cars. I live in the SF Bay Area so keep in mind this means hills included. My point is that since the DCT is functionally a manual, the programming could be tweaked to improve clutch life to 100 - 150k. To over simplify, driving a manual considers the following: vehicle speed, RPM, current gear, throttle input, engine load and clutch position. Makes me wonder if the Ford team responsible for the programming strategy actually drive manual trannys on the daily. Heck, I think only 18% of Americans know how to operate a manual and that doesn’t confirm they are even good or experienced. Would love to talk to the Ford programming folks lol.
 
#46 ·
Have a 2017 SEL sedan. With Sport shift, car has been most trouble free car ever owned. 42,000 mi. never been in for any service except normal service, and no recalls. Driven mostly in town for delivering, a lot of stop and go. The best thing to do. Drive the hell out of it, and I do.
 
#48 ·
Having driven more manual transmission cars than automatics, and having had terrible luck with about every automatic that I have owned, I would have much preferred a manual when I bought this thing.

Rather dismayed at the reality of the DCT, I thought about how/why I choose to clutch the way I do in a manual, and if I were telling a computer how to do it, what would I do. I came to the conclusion that it would be nearly impossible, unless the compyuter were also controlling the throttle, and viewing the drive ahead. A large part of how I choose to engage the clutch has to do with that I intend to do. I might still give the gas a little pressure to let the clutch out, even if I intend to go slow, just to get the clutch engaged sooner. If I do the same thing with the gas in the DCT, I'll end up crashing into the car in front of me in traffic. I can't really see how a good solution to program that would be, unless you make the car entirely self-driving.
 
#53 ·
I don't recall a lot of other manufacturers selling DCTs telling customers they are the problem not their transmission.

And face it,the DCT is an automatic transmission when it's all said an done.
 
#54 ·
I don't recall a lot of other manufacturers selling DCTs telling customers they are the problem not their transmission.



And face it,the DCT is an automatic transmission when it's all said an done.
Because the customer is not the problem in Ford's case. Ford is directly to blame. You have people all over the internet saying the software is junk. Then you have Ford saying they're programming extra slip into it to make the car "more comfortable" at launch. Sounds awful fishy, does it not?

People do need to know what they're driving though. You are never supposed to creep in a dry dual clutch. They *should* be telling people this. Plus, like I said, creeping at red lights literally gets you nowhere. Just my opinion that it's a dumb habit. You're overheating your clutches by creeping. Needs to be common knowledge at this point.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
#57 ·
This is the first I've heard of TCM problems from the Renault side. What I'm not clear on is if there have been many or even any failures from 16-18 on the Fiesta/Focus. Some people have had multiple changes on their cars. I'm at 86k miles on my original, but I've seen a lack of power twice, about a month apart each. To be clear, there's no guarantee the TCM is the offender; many things can cause a lack of power. My car is a 2016.

Other than shudder, for the most part I've had no problems in a little over 2 years of having the vehicle. I'm not sure if the noises they are talking about are the normal ones or not. People should realize, however, that some noises are in fact normal.

To me, there's no excuse if they haven't figured out the TCM issue at this point. I do know the early ones were especially bad. 40-60k miles was the norm before failure.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
#58 ·
So eight weeks into our latest clutches, the TCM went out. Dealer replaced it under the updated warranty. So our stats are this: 2014 MY, original owners, 4 clutches, two TCMs (all counting originally installed parts) and just hit 84k miles. Love everything else about the car; hate that Ford has abandoned us on a true fix for the DCT.
 
#60 ·
"RS200 will have some teething issues with the DCT although I suspect the changes Renault Sport made to the cooling of the propiertry Getrag 6DCT250 means they won't have the same issues that people are seeing with the Fiesta and Focus."

The question is, what did Renault do cooling wise? I'm also still not convinced the software is the same as the Fiesta/Focus. Highly doubt it.



https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2191223

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top