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Old 09-12-2012, 02:41 PM   #88081
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Originally Posted by DarwinSays View Post
You attempt to make some decent points, but your bias is fail.
Similarly, what I should have said initially was 'most of the Chiropractors *I'VE* gone to' have a doctorate. Contrary to what you might believe, there are actually a lot of practitioners out there that do take chiropracty seriously, and that is very anti-quack.
Chiropractors CALL themselves doctors in the same way that a PhD Psychologist CALLS themselves a doctor. That doesn't make them MEDICAL DOCTORS. There are only two designations for medical doctors: DO and MD. a DC does not equal an MD or a DO. All that is required to call yourself a Doctor of Chiropracty (or just use the label "Doctor") is to go through the education of being a Chiropractor.

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If you're going to quote wikipedia, please do so responsibly and include a link so people can read up on all the the bits you left out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_education
What bits did I leave out exactly? Where does it say you need an MD or a DO to be a chiropractor?

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The only reason I can think of that a college would require it is likely because they are a smaller university that doesn't offer those prerequisite classes, and/or offer it as an accelerated course.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. In the US you just need 90 hours of college before you can get into the 4 year chiropractor school and once you graduate and do your training you're a "Doctor".

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These two statements contradict each other - 'Doubt there are hardly any' implies that you think there are plenty.
which is it?
Ok... well... bad grammar on my part. You know what I meant. Move on.


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It takes 8. Anything in addition to that is residency/fellowship or the student not attending full time. I would imagine residency wouldn't apply to someone looking to go into chiropracty since they have their own 1000hrs/1yr of supervised clinical training to perform at that point.
Actually I was wrong. It takes 11 minimum with residency. I was including residency in that estimation. You can't get a full medical license until you are done with residency.

So you're trying to tell me that Chiropractors do 11 years of school to become a doctor, and then move on to Chiropractor school for another four? 15 years? Don't think so.


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"Requirements" vary across various years and across states, and the only people that stop educating themselves after the bare minimum education requirements are achieved anyway.....are in fact true quacks. Any serious medical practitioner - regardless of chosen field - spends a lot of time and effort on keeping up on the latest practices, developments, etc. long after they've finished their education and training. In fact, most states in the U.S. REQUIRE annually-continued education in order to maintain their practitioners license.
I would disagree that a chiropractor is a serious medical professional. But yes, all medical professionals can and should undergo ongoing education. But as a medical professional I also know that education can be a sham and that continuing education credits can easily be bought from online courses, or gotten from lectures and conferences rather easily. Sadly I know many people in my field who get those ongoing certs and still have no idea what they're doing. Probably worse if you're getting "chiropractic" continuing ed.


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The general concensus is that partial or complete "dislocation" (subluxations) of the spine can cause a lot of pain or even paralysis, but not disease.
Variations in the alignment of vertebrae in the spinal column, however, CAN cause SYMPTOMS of illness or disease, without them actually being present.
Yes this is anecdotal since these effects are very hard to study and reproduce, and the proper funding has not gone into this research yet.
Sure, dislocation of the spine can cause pain or paralysis. I know that and I haven't had any courses in chiropractic medicine. However that is not historically how chiropractors have viewed subluxations:

http://www.skepdic.com/chiro.html

and really what can a chiropractor do to help your spine that a real Doctor couldn't?


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This is simply not true.
I started as a skeptic like yourself. I thought these people were glorified massage therapists. But as almost anyone who has studied psychology will tell you, strong skepticism does not foster placebo effects.
Actually I have a Master's Degree in Psychology and you are absolutely wrong on this point.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...ents-sham-drug

People still get a placebo effect even when they know they are taking a placebo.

Beyond that there are other reasons why someone who is highly skeptical might still experience benefit from placebo. Skepticism reduces the effect of placebo but it does not eliminate it. Especially in cases where people are desperate to have a treatment work because of chronic pain, even though they don't entirely believe it will.



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Then I guess it's a good thing I never claimed this. I say that many HAVE MD's, not that chiropractors ARE MD's.
Go ahead and ask every chiropractor that you know if they are a licensed medical doctor with an MD or a DO. I'd be interested in hearing the results. I would hazard to guess that the percentage is close to 0. Who is going to spend 11 - 18 years working on an MD or DO then give up a lucrative career to do another 4 years plus training hours to be a chiropractor and make less money? That would be insane.

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Seriously though, any formally trained and responsible practitioner will not.....
I'm not saying that there aren't chiropractors that don't do some good or help some people. Just that their whole basis for their style of "medicine" is deeply flawed and based on unfounded and unproven assertions. I'm sure that they think they are helping people and believe the stuff they are telling you and everyone else. Where's the hard data?

The neck thing does creep me out though. Ick.

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I don't really understand what your trauma on the issue of chiropractors is and why you would want to make them look like pikeys posing as spinal micro-surgeons, rather than simply state that it's not something that's not for you; but as someone who doesn't strike me as having as much education as a fully licensed chiropractor might, I find it bordering on hilarity that you would attempt to trivialize it.
Well you'd be wrong that I don't have as much education as a fully licensed chiropractor. four years for a bachelor's, two years for a master's degree, two years of training (our version of residency), plus another two years of advanced education in substance abuse.

I actually didn't initially care about all this, but you brought forth a mess of misinformation about the "profession" of Chiropracty, so I felt compelled to give my viewpoint.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:48 PM   #88082
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You guys are both going to extremes here, take it to PMs or GTFO, seriously.

Every chiropractor I have ever been to, only claims that having vertebrae out of alignment in a given area, or a pinched nerve, can cause pain to an appendage or tightness in the back/pain. An MD, phsyical therapist, and masseuse would all agree on this. A pinched nerve can indeed cause pain, and not always in the area where the nerve is.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:01 PM   #88083
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You guys are both going to extremes here, take it to PMs or GTFO, seriously.

Every chiropractor I have ever been to, only claims that having vertebrae out of alignment in a given area, or a pinched nerve, can cause pain to an appendage or tightness in the back/pain. An MD, phsyical therapist, and masseuse would all agree on this. A pinched nerve can indeed cause pain, and not always in the area where the nerve is.
Nah. I'm done.

When I get into debate mode I can sometimes get going. Not because I'm angry, I just enjoy debates. But you are absolutely right. Not the place for it.

Sorry if I got you riled up Darwin. If I ever make it out to a meet I'll buy you a beer.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:10 PM   #88084
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Kyle, thats no different than the hundreds of brads posts about their autox bs.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:24 PM   #88085
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At least Auto-X is car related?

And we don't type out big long zomg walls of text usually either...

also this

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Old 09-12-2012, 03:33 PM   #88086
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At least Auto-X is car related?

And we don't type out big long zomg walls of text usually either...

also this

That totally is a cup full of blood clots. Nasty.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:40 PM   #88087
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Nah. I'm done.

When I get into debate mode I can sometimes get going. Not because I'm angry, I just enjoy debates. But you are absolutely right. Not the place for it.

Sorry if I got you riled up Darwin. If I ever make it out to a meet I'll buy you a beer.
Nah, you didnt rile me up. I enjoy debates as well, and your post smelled of irrational bias, so I decided to play devils advocate. Besides, even optimistic placebo rates don't account for the number of people who claim to benefit from chiro treatment. You can tell that even from the number of people in here that chimed in saying so. I'm usually willing to discuss just about any topic at length.

And It's totally car related. Where do you go to counteract the effect of way too stiff a suspension on Michigan roads? hehe.

If the meets keep happening on Thursdays, I'll be waiting for that beer for quite some time. I need to convince bro to take a Thursday off and take care of doggeh for an evenin'.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:55 PM   #88088
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Nah, you didnt rile me up. I enjoy debates as well, and your post smelled of irrational bias, so I decided to play devils advocate. Besides, even optimistic placebo rates don't account for the number of people who claim to benefit from chiro treatment. You can tell that even from the number of people in here that chimed in saying so. I'm usually willing to discuss just about any topic at length.

If the meets keep happening on Thursdays, I'll be waiting for that beer for quite some time. I need to convince bro to take a Thursday off and take care of doggeh for an evenin'.
Hard to tell sometimes on forums.

I have a hard time making it on Thursdays too. Just busy.

I still think it's placebo. Anecdotal evidence is just that. But while I'd never go to a chiropractor, I don't think any less of someone that does. Nor do I doubt that there are plenty of chiropractors that are sincere in their desire to help people. I just question their methodology and the scientific veracity of their claims.

Probably the only time I'd have a problem with it is if someone went to a chiropractor instead of seeing a doctor for a serious illness.
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:00 PM   #88089
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Both of your cars face the same direction in your pics...
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:07 PM   #88090
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if your gonna complain about suspension and Michigan roads, please move down south or about it. sick of everyone saying it
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