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Old 08-20-2014, 07:42 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
How is it you checked for optimal cam timing with your scan tool , you stated you didnt spring for the tune so it was tuned or it wasnt tuned ? I never said I was the only tuner those are your words , Most all of my customers report good gains with my tuning , whats your point ?

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No it wasn't tuned and I never said anything about optimal cam timing. I used the specs that the cam manufacturer sent with the cams. And surprise surprise, it was the same as the Stock cam timing! I didn't feel the need to make any cam timing changes when I had already gained MPG and my ECU and engine were completely happy.... Well that is after I installed some larger injectors to drop my +20% LTFT down to 5%.

I am not doubting your tuning abilities, just the fact that every time I see you post in a thread you are telling people to spend money on stuff that they may not really need right away. If a camshaft manufacturer states that no timing and no valve train upgrades are required, why do members on here tell people they are? Sure they may have to swap out a few buckets to get the proper clearances, that's the same with any cam instal. You should always check your clearances. Still no need for new valves.

I agree that a tune and some time on the dyno will get you that extra hp. With a drop in cam and bolt-ons however it is not a necessity like you make it seem to the members. Their cars will not burst into flames nor will their engines blow up because they didn't get a tune! If anything, it would be installer error.

Just saying


Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus2727 View Post
Most cams need upgraded valve train also.

Also the fact that most people recommend the Comp Camps Stage 3 SKU: 108300. I would not run those with out upgraded valve train and there is potential for needing clearance and head work no matter what cam (other than stage 1, due to the interference that is possible with non dimensional controlled parts of the casting).
Can you tell me why an upgraded valve train is a necessity on a Comp Cams stage3 vs a 1 or 2 and what sort of clearance and head work are you referring to?
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:07 AM   #42
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The RPM's that you are spinning at with the upgraded cams puts your power band up higher. Stage 3 your at 7k RPM or higher for power. I recommend you get upgraded springs to make sure you do not get valve float. Comp Cams says you dont need to on their website (mostly due to the fact that they have minimal more lift but have longer duration). Also I am likely biased because I went with the valve train over cams due to me already having the head off.

I would also look at the higher RPM oil pump, just for the fact that you have pushed your power band up in RPM and you will have your motor at a higher RPM more often (likely over the factory redline due to a tune moving it).

the clearance work of the head I will try to find a picture. Once again Comp cams may not have as much as an issue due to offering the lowest lift of the aftermarket cams and going instead with longer duration. but the area of concern is around the machined hole for the valve where the lobe sweeps over.



you can see the "rough" surface where the lobe needs to sweep prior to fully extending where the bucket would be. This rough surface is a non dimensional kept surface. i.e. there is variations in castings and this may or may not be a problem. every cast is different and it is not post machined to a specified dimension so to say that you 100% will not have an issue is a dangerous game.

once again with comp cam going with duration in there design instead of lift & duration it is likely that the clearance and the valve springs do not need to be upgraded as indicated.

However seeing the gains that people have advertised on just gears alone there is also no reason why I would not recommend getting the gears first and then upgrade the cams. If you have to remove the head (for clearance) then why not do the valve also as you will likely get a valve job done also.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:24 AM   #43
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Thank you for adding all that information. It's much better for people who don't know all this, when you actually add the facts to your claims. Just wanted you to clarify that for the OP.

Cheers!
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:45 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostTribute View Post
No it wasn't tuned and I never said anything about optimal cam timing. I used the specs that the cam manufacturer sent with the cams. And surprise surprise, it was the same as the Stock cam timing!
So your saying you used a degree wheel ? What do you mean by "stock" cam timing , there is no pin in the stock cams or stock cam gears so there really isnt a "stock" cam timing

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I didn't feel the need to make any cam timing changes when I had already gained MPG and my ECU and engine were completely happy.... Well that is after I installed some larger injectors to drop my +20% LTFT down to 5%.
I am really confused by the larger injectors , you stated your LTFT ( Long Turm Fuel Trim )was +20% which means 20% to much fuel and you went larger and dropped it to 5% you didnt say if that was +/- 5% but either way why would you go larger on the Inj if you had to much fuel already ? What you should of been watching was your STFT ( Short Turm Fuel Trim ) and with the larger injectors this would of been pulling out massive amounts of fuel even if you went to the next size injector of 24lb from your stock 19lb would of been a 25% larger Inj and 25% STFT and thats max the ECU can change , your LTFT would be maxed now at 1.250 all the time and your STFT would be failed and your now in forced open loop and running like crap so something isnt right here

Whats really confusing is you stated your air fuels were " spot on " which would be an impossibility with larger injectors and no tune

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostTribute View Post
I am not doubting your tuning abilities, just the fact that every time I see you post in a thread you are telling people to spend money on stuff that they may not really need right away.
Because they do need it , why add cams then come back later and have to take it all the way apart again to add springs in my opinion springs should be added to stg2 or higher any one adding stg2 cams are going to have header , intake , tb etc and tuned and want to turn it past 6800 and cams are not worth adding if your not going to do adj cam gears and gain the full potential of the mod

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostTribute View Post
If a camshaft manufacturer states that no timing and no valve train upgrades are required, why do members on here tell people they are? Sure they may have to swap out a few buckets to get the proper clearances, that's the same with any cam instal. You should always check your clearances. Still no need for new valves.
Because cam manufactures are there to sell parts they dont take into account how many miles are on the old springs , how much abuse they have already gone through , over heated , over revved etc , again my opinion is stg2 or higher needs new performance valve springs



Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostTribute View Post
I agree that a tune and some time on the dyno will get you that extra hp. With a drop in cam and bolt-ons however it is not a necessity like you make it seem to the members. Their cars will not burst into flames nor will their engines blow up because they didn't get a tune! If anything, it would be installer error.
I dont agree , I can build a 12-1 compression , stg3 cams , svt header , larger injectors , and run it on 87 octane , no adj cam gears , tune for 87 octane and it will run and run for a long time and not blow up into flames , it will be a waste of time and money because I am not getting the potential out of the mods , yes he can add cams with out adding adjustable cam gears and end up with -30% to 70% of the potential of what the cams could do , why do that ?
On top of that the OP should know what he is getting into and what it is going to take to make the cams work properly which is far more then just adj cam gears , he needs header , TB , intake , adj cam gears , tune , at the very least to make the cams fully do there job and to fully get there potential



Tom
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:44 PM   #45
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As far as cam timing goes what is the Ford cam timing shim for if they aren't set at a certain degree? I set my cams to Fords specs with the crankshaft. No adjustment made. That's what I was saying.

Yeah that should have read STFT of 20% not +20% LTFT..... any way you did the math and I now sit at +%5 so you were spot on with the 25% increase with 24lb injectors.

See now there is more info that you are adding to this thread that the OP should know about. To make use of stage 2 & 3 camshafts the engine really should rev above 7k. In which case a new oil pump gear is also a must have. I haven't felt the need to go above 7k with my stage 2. Now with my new setup I am, so I an upgrading.

I thought the reason for these forums was for the knowledgeable members to help educate members, not just spoon feed them part numbers. At least now we are finally getting some real information for the original poster.

Again Cheers to that!
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:03 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostTribute View Post
As far as cam timing goes what is the Ford cam timing shim for if they aren't set at a certain degree? I set my cams to Fords specs with the crankshaft. No adjustment made. That's what I was saying.
Ford Cam timing shim ? so you used a degree wheel or no ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostTribute View Post
Yeah that should have read STFT of 20% not +20% LTFT..... any way you did the math and I now sit at +%5 so you were spot on with the 25% increase with 24lb injectors.
Im still very confused , you said no tune , larger injectors there is NO WAY your AF is " spot on " your in failed open loop not in closed loop like you should be and your WOT would be VERY RICH , with out a tune and changing the injector size and not telling the ECU you have done this will run like crap , AF will NOT be spot on so please tell us what you did to correct this ?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostTribute View Post
See now there is more info that you are adding to this thread that the OP should know about. To make use of stage 2 & 3 camshafts the engine really should rev above 7k. In which case a new oil pump gear is also a must have. I haven't felt the need to go above 7k with my stage 2. Now with my new setup I am, so I an upgrading.
You dont need billet gears to run to 7300 anything above 7500 they are recommended , what RPM you rev to is determined by supporting mods not just cams , it takes the proper combination of mods to make it all work properly and what I have been saying sense post 1 , no cams are not worth adding if your not going to do adj cam gears/supporting mods

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Old 08-20-2014, 04:12 PM   #47
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Well the engine is torn down and at the engine shop right now and I didn't take any vids... I will agree that at first it was on the rich side. However, after letting the fuel trims settle, WOT was a bit on the rich side @ 12.5-13:1, while the idle was 13.8 - 14.5 most of the time. Rich but not overly, I'm still not sure who I was getting 475km to a tank. Lots of highway driving I suppose.....

Only CEL codes that I ever got were for the DPFE signal out of range and EVAP leak detected.... However those would only come up every couple of days. And even when it was on I never saw any change in AFR's

oh and I was running a MAF sensor calibrated for 24lb injectors on a 2.0L.... I'm pretty sure that probably makes a difference as well.

As far as the cam instal goes. I installed them without a degree wheel and just dropped them in as if they were standard Ford Zetec cams. I used a crank pin and 5mm camshaft holding plate to set the mechanical timing between the crank and cam.... so yeah I just threw parts at the engine and hopped they would work. Guess I was one of the lucky ones that didn't blow it up.

Again I agree that a tune will make the best of any mods. I'm not disputing that fact... But to say dropping a set of cams without a tune is a complete waste is BS in my opinion. I guess when a company says "Drop in Cams" they are assuming that you know that you also have to have your valve train upgraded and a custom tune. Along with all the other supporting mods....... OK! Oh wait, they recommend a CAI and exhaust!

anywho..... I have some work to do on my Tribute, Cheers!
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:26 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Im still very confused , you said no tune , larger injectors there is NO WAY your AF is " spot on " your in failed open loop not in closed loop like you should be and your WOT would be VERY RICH , with out a tune and changing the injector size and not telling the ECU you have done this will run like crap , AF will NOT be spot on so please tell us what you did to correct this ?????
Tom

I don't recommend it ever but,
you can play with MAF housings to tune. I've done it and it can work for some area's. It's by no means perfect and very far from the correct way, in a pinch though ...
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Old 08-20-2014, 07:03 PM   #49
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Yes but then you throw off the load and the timing among other things , but you know that lol

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Old 08-20-2014, 07:49 PM   #50
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All too well.

Taking a system approach has worked out FAR better for me. Treating the engine as a system of individual parts and tuning the whole system; vs a single part and thinking it will make vast improvements. For example, an intake. Alone it does all of nothing for performance. But if you treat it as part of a whole and also modify parts it comes in contact with, then you can see some good improvements.
This 'I have $50' approach just doesn't work for the zetec. It must be dealt with in lumps. But try telling that to a kid looking to blow his college loan money on upgrades ...
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