Wall Street Journal Article -DCT - Page 5 - Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum
Ford Focus Forum
HomeContact UsAbout UsGalleryDiscussion ForumsMarketplace


Go Back   Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum > Ford Focus Discussions > Ford Focus & General Car Chat

Ford Focus & General Car Chat Discussion Forum relating to nonspecific Ford Focus models, car purchasing, auto industry news and any car talk.

Search This Forum | Image Search | Advanced Search    
Ford Focus Tire & Wheels FocusFanatics Merchandise

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-18-2014, 12:33 PM   #41
crazy_urn
Capt. Urn
 
crazy_urn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Fan#: 1986
Location: Uncharted Waters, CO
What I Drive: 77 F-250, 10 HHR, 08 Outlook

Posts: 5,491
FF Reputation: 5 crazy_urn Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan50 View Post
So, I really don't care what the underlying causes of the problems were or are. But Ford has messed this up royally, failing on development, quality control, problem resolution and owner relations. There aren't a lot of other categories.
I also don't care about the underlying cause of the problems. Mainly because I do not have a horse in this particular race. But I have experienced both dealer and manufacturer ineptitude with my 03 SPI. If you think a few relatively minor transmission problems are bad, try owning a ticking time bomb of an engine that will literally suck in a valve seal, destroying at least one entire cylinder, some times more. Now, consider owning one of these masterfully created engineering marvels and learning that Ford had the same exact problem on the same engine in the 1997-2002 escort SPI. Ford has known of my problem for at least ten years, and has done nothing about it.

So, I think that gives me a little perspective into the discussion of what Ford's failures in this matter are.

One thing that I think some people forget in the midst of their frustration is that Ford is a business. And at the end of the day, like the vast majority of businesses, they care about the customer so long as it does not impact the bottom line. The DCT issues come down to a simple cost/benefit analysis. At this point in time, the cost of actually solving the problem far outweighs the benefit. And until that equation changes, Ford's position will not change.

One final thought, and I will get off my soapbox. There are some that say if this was a different manufacturer this would be handled differently. (Not you dan50). GoldenHour suggested that Toyota would never allow something like this to happen. Do you remember the unintended acceleration recall fiasco? yes, they recalled 9 million vehicles, but not until after 10 years of complaints and 37 deaths. Tell me how that is any better than Ford's lack of acknowledgment of the DCT problems?

I don't have a problem with people being upset with Ford. I am upset with Ford about the SPI issue. But to suggest that another manufacturer would handle the situation any better is naive.
__________________
Defending the reputation of the red-headed step-child of the focus world for far too long.
crazy_urn is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-18-2014, 01:04 PM   #42
dan50
Focus Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Fan#: 91789
Location: Too much info, IL
What I Drive: 2012 SEL White Platinum 5 Dr 302A

Posts: 1,186
Points 2,932, Level 33
Points: 2,932, Level: 33 Points: 2,932, Level: 33 Points: 2,932, Level: 33
Level Up 22% Completed
Level up: 22% Level up: 22% Level up: 22%
Forum Activity 2%
Activity: 2% Activity: 2% Activity: 2%
FF Reputation: 12 dan50 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_urn View Post
I also don't care about the underlying cause of the problems. Mainly because I do not have a horse in this particular race. But I have experienced both dealer and manufacturer ineptitude with my 03 SPI. If you think a few relatively minor transmission problems are bad, try owning a ticking time bomb of an engine that will literally suck in a valve seal, destroying at least one entire cylinder, some times more. Now, consider owning one of these masterfully created engineering marvels and learning that Ford had the same exact problem on the same engine in the 1997-2002 escort SPI. Ford has known of my problem for at least ten years, and has done nothing about it.

So, I think that gives me a little perspective into the discussion of what Ford's failures in this matter are.

One thing that I think some people forget in the midst of their frustration is that Ford is a business. And at the end of the day, like the vast majority of businesses, they care about the customer so long as it does not impact the bottom line. The DCT issues come down to a simple cost/benefit analysis. At this point in time, the cost of actually solving the problem far outweighs the benefit. And until that equation changes, Ford's position will not change.

One final thought, and I will get off my soapbox. There are some that say if this was a different manufacturer this would be handled differently. (Not you dan50). GoldenHour suggested that Toyota would never allow something like this to happen. Do you remember the unintended acceleration recall fiasco? yes, they recalled 9 million vehicles, but not until after 10 years of complaints and 37 deaths. Tell me how that is any better than Ford's lack of acknowledgment of the DCT problems?

I don't have a problem with people being upset with Ford. I am upset with Ford about the SPI issue. But to suggest that another manufacturer would handle the situation any better is naive.
I have to agree, sort-of. Honda, for one, has had its share with variable cylinder management issues with its V6 engines (class-action lawsuit finally settled it) and transmission issues of its own. But Honda at least eventually extended the transmission warranty, which Ford hasn't. In Honda's case though, the underlying problems became evident only after lots of miles; Focus issues were evident almost immediately. The Cruze had tons of automatic transmssion complaints when it was introduced, but to Chevy's credit they adjusted the software quickly and effectively.

It's reasonable to assume that Ford's aggressive new-model rollout schedule has strained engineering resources, probably relegating DCT issues to the back burner and the "B" team. Reasonable explanation but poor excuse. So maybe other manufacturers would have behaved the same, but maybe not - guess I'll see how they do when new car time comes around.
dan50 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-18-2014, 02:16 PM   #43
crazy_urn
Capt. Urn
 
crazy_urn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Fan#: 1986
Location: Uncharted Waters, CO
What I Drive: 77 F-250, 10 HHR, 08 Outlook

Posts: 5,491
FF Reputation: 5 crazy_urn Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan50 View Post
I have to agree, sort-of. Honda, for one, has had its share with variable cylinder management issues with its V6 engines (class-action lawsuit finally settled it) and transmission issues of its own. But Honda at least eventually extended the transmission warranty, which Ford hasn't. In Honda's case though, the underlying problems became evident only after lots of miles; Focus issues were evident almost immediately. The Cruze had tons of automatic transmssion complaints when it was introduced, but to Chevy's credit they adjusted the software quickly and effectively.

It's reasonable to assume that Ford's aggressive new-model rollout schedule has strained engineering resources, probably relegating DCT issues to the back burner and the "B" team. Reasonable explanation but poor excuse. So maybe other manufacturers would have behaved the same, but maybe not - guess I'll see how they do when new car time comes around.
I think the class-action suit against honda proves my point. Do you think they would have extended the warranty without the lawsuit? It is a basic PR move, done to mitigate the damage of the lawsuit. Not because they actually care about their customers.

As for the issues with the Cruze, software issues are entirely different than hardware. The typical first response to issues like this is a software upgrade, (as we saw with the DCT). Chevy was lucky enough that it fixed the problem. Doesn't mean they cared any more about their customers. They followed the exact same playbook, and it happened to fix the problem.

As far as I have seen, there is no evidence that suggests that Ford has acted any differently than any other manufacturer would have, given the same circumstances.
__________________
Defending the reputation of the red-headed step-child of the focus world for far too long.
crazy_urn is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-18-2014, 03:26 PM   #44
dan50
Focus Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Fan#: 91789
Location: Too much info, IL
What I Drive: 2012 SEL White Platinum 5 Dr 302A

Posts: 1,186
Points 2,932, Level 33
Points: 2,932, Level: 33 Points: 2,932, Level: 33 Points: 2,932, Level: 33
Level Up 22% Completed
Level up: 22% Level up: 22% Level up: 22%
Forum Activity 2%
Activity: 2% Activity: 2% Activity: 2%
FF Reputation: 12 dan50 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_urn View Post
I think the class-action suit against honda proves my point. Do you think they would have extended the warranty without the lawsuit? It is a basic PR move, done to mitigate the damage of the lawsuit. Not because they actually care about their customers.

As for the issues with the Cruze, software issues are entirely different than hardware. The typical first response to issues like this is a software upgrade, (as we saw with the DCT). Chevy was lucky enough that it fixed the problem. Doesn't mean they cared any more about their customers. They followed the exact same playbook, and it happened to fix the problem.

As far as I have seen, there is no evidence that suggests that Ford has acted any differently than any other manufacturer would have, given the same circumstances.
Splitting hairs here, but Honda's extended transmission warranty was voluntary. The class-action suit was for the VCM problem.

As to whether or not Ford acted differently, I guess there are a range of corporate behaviors in these circumstances. But IMHO, Ford is pretty far toward the bad end of that range in this instance.
dan50 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-18-2014, 03:37 PM   #45
RonMaiden
Focus Fanatic
 
RonMaiden's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Fan#: 99230
Location: Littleton, CO
What I Drive: 2012 Red Candy Metallic Hatch SE

Posts: 4,116
Points 4,156, Level 41
Points: 4,156, Level: 41 Points: 4,156, Level: 41 Points: 4,156, Level: 41
Level Up 3% Completed
Level up: 3% Level up: 3% Level up: 3%
Forum Activity 2%
Activity: 2% Activity: 2% Activity: 2%
FF Reputation: 6 RonMaiden Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
These persistent threads on the DCT make me appreciate my 5 speed more everyday and thanks to this site the apparent issues with the DCT were such a hot topic from the day I registered I never even considered the option. Thanks FF.

I hope Ford gets these problems straight but I'd never trust one enough to recommend a DCT to a friend.
__________________
'12 Focus Red Candy SE Sport 5 spd
'99 Toyota 4Runner Sport
'11 Subaru WRX STI Hatch
RonMaiden is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-18-2014, 04:49 PM   #46
crazy_urn
Capt. Urn
 
crazy_urn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Fan#: 1986
Location: Uncharted Waters, CO
What I Drive: 77 F-250, 10 HHR, 08 Outlook

Posts: 5,491
FF Reputation: 5 crazy_urn Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan50 View Post
Splitting hairs here, but Honda's extended transmission warranty was voluntary. The class-action suit was for the VCM problem.

As to whether or not Ford acted differently, I guess there are a range of corporate behaviors in these circumstances. But IMHO, Ford is pretty far toward the bad end of that range in this instance.
I think you are wrongly assuming that the decision made by Honda was anything other than a business decision. Sure the extended warranty may have been voluntary, but if you think for a minute they did it out of the kindness of their heart because of concern for their consumers, you have been duped. It was the best business decision. Doesn't extended transmission warranty have a better ring to it than recall? So they replace bad publicity of a common transmission problem with the good publicity of the warranty, without using the term recall, and saving a ton of money by avoiding a full recall.

Ford is no better or no worse than any other car company. They are just in the negative part of the cycle. There is no range of corporate behaviors. There is the best business decision in that particular situation, and that is it. it all boils down to the cost/benefit analysis. That is the bible for corporate financial decisions. The most extreme public example of this was the Pinto Memorandum. But if you think any other car company (or major company) operates any differently, you are greatly mistaken.
__________________
Defending the reputation of the red-headed step-child of the focus world for far too long.
crazy_urn is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-18-2014, 07:03 PM   #47
dan50
Focus Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Fan#: 91789
Location: Too much info, IL
What I Drive: 2012 SEL White Platinum 5 Dr 302A

Posts: 1,186
Points 2,932, Level 33
Points: 2,932, Level: 33 Points: 2,932, Level: 33 Points: 2,932, Level: 33
Level Up 22% Completed
Level up: 22% Level up: 22% Level up: 22%
Forum Activity 2%
Activity: 2% Activity: 2% Activity: 2%
FF Reputation: 12 dan50 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_urn View Post
I think you are wrongly assuming that the decision made by Honda was anything other than a business decision. Sure the extended warranty may have been voluntary, but if you think for a minute they did it out of the kindness of their heart because of concern for their consumers, you have been duped. It was the best business decision. Doesn't extended transmission warranty have a better ring to it than recall? So they replace bad publicity of a common transmission problem with the good publicity of the warranty, without using the term recall, and saving a ton of money by avoiding a full recall.

Ford is no better or no worse than any other car company. They are just in the negative part of the cycle. There is no range of corporate behaviors. There is the best business decision in that particular situation, and that is it. it all boils down to the cost/benefit analysis. That is the bible for corporate financial decisions. The most extreme public example of this was the Pinto Memorandum. But if you think any other car company (or major company) operates any differently, you are greatly mistaken.
You're right in that all major automakers act in their own self-interest. And I'm not naive enough to think Ford will do the "right thing" for owners unless they think the cost/benefit relationship makes sense.

Let's try this: compared to other similar situations and similar automakers (even including Ford), on a scale of 1 - 5, with 5 being best how would you rate the Focus DCT situation in terms of:

a) Releasing a good-quality product to the public, demonstrating both thorough pre-production testing and a willingness to hold back production if standards weren't met (like Chrysler just did with the Jeep Cherokee's transmission). Keeping in mind that it took the automotive press all of, say, 10 minutes in a DCT Focus to highlight the problem and that Ford has tons of DCT experience in Europe.

b) Promptly and efficiently dealing with problems when they become evident. Keeping in mind that Ford has spent three calendar years on this issue so far, and only called in the "A" team a year ago. Maybe it's fixed, but maybe not quite. Three years.

I give Ford a "1" in both categories. You may grade higher, but certainly not more than a "2".

This has less to do with corporate morality than it does corporate competence. Maybe the Focus experience was a low point for Ford, maybe they've learned a thing or two, maybe future launches will be better. But as a Focus owner, none of that mitigates my frustration and disappointment with Ford.
dan50 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-18-2014, 07:56 PM   #48
ElectricAL
Focus Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Fan#: 71376
Location: Minneapolis, MN
What I Drive: 2005 Silver ST

Posts: 676
FF Reputation: 2 ElectricAL Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonMaiden View Post
These persistent threads on the DCT make me appreciate my 5 speed more everyday and thanks to this site the apparent issues with the DCT were such a hot topic from the day I registered I never even considered the option. Thanks FF.

I hope Ford gets these problems straight but I'd never trust one enough to recommend a DCT to a friend.
Careful not to jinx yourself!

You could suffer the fate of the folks that go to pass with their manual transmission and experience a chilling lack of power...
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281609

Don't worry. It won't happen to you... but it could
ElectricAL is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-18-2014, 08:55 PM   #49
wavsine
Focus Addict
 
wavsine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Fan#: 118470
Location: DFW, TX
What I Drive: 2013 Focus SE Oxford White Hatch 5m

Posts: 950
Points 17,203, Level 83
Points: 17,203, Level: 83 Points: 17,203, Level: 83 Points: 17,203, Level: 83
Level Up 71% Completed
Level up: 71% Level up: 71% Level up: 71%
Forum Activity 12%
Activity: 12% Activity: 12% Activity: 12%
FF Reputation: 15 wavsine Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan50 View Post
You're right in that all major automakers act in their own self-interest. And I'm not naive enough to think Ford will do the "right thing" for owners unless they think the cost/benefit relationship makes sense.

Ford, like any publicly traded company, has to answer to shareholders. Don't look for benevolence on this matter.

Let's try this: compared to other similar situations and similar automakers (even including Ford), on a scale of 1 - 5, with 5 being best how would you rate the Focus DCT situation in terms of:

a) Releasing a good-quality product to the public, demonstrating both thorough pre-production testing and a willingness to hold back production if standards weren't met (like Chrysler just did with the Jeep Cherokee's transmission). Keeping in mind that it took the automotive press all of, say, 10 minutes in a DCT Focus to highlight the problem and that Ford has tons of DCT experience in Europe.

1, but keeping in mind that the European DCT is a wet clutch design.

b) Promptly and efficiently dealing with problems when they become evident. Keeping in mind that Ford has spent three calendar years on this issue so far, and only called in the "A" team a year ago. Maybe it's fixed, but maybe not quite. Three years.
1
The new 2015 Ford Focus will debut at the Geneva auto show next month. The 64 dollar question is will it still have the dry clutch DCT or will Ford abandon it. Retention of the dry clutch DCT might actually be of benefit to existing 2012-2014 owners since it may signal Ford is figuring out how to remedy all the problems. Perhaps a clutch revision "E" will be introduced.

My personal opinion: clutches are best when operated by a left foot, not a computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan50 View Post
The DCT was released as a grossly underdeveloped product. Auto magazines panned the thing immediately and complaints from new owners came in awfully quickly. Either Ford's testing process was grossly deficient or they became prisoners of the calendar and knowingly released a deficient product.
Algorithm testing of the DCT was performed by Ford civilian employees:

"Ford started with a simulator program in which "civilian" Ford employees tested a wide range of control strategies."

And many people do not know that some of the shudder is by design:

"the computer can induce some shift shudder " (as a warning)

http://articles.sae.org/8287/
__________________
Use a Motorcraft FL-400S filter to increase filtration media and oil quantity. (Drop in for FL-910S)

Synthetic oil in GDI engines
www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324396

Last edited by wavsine; 02-19-2014 at 03:36 PM.
wavsine is online now  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-19-2014, 11:13 AM   #50
crazy_urn
Capt. Urn
 
crazy_urn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Fan#: 1986
Location: Uncharted Waters, CO
What I Drive: 77 F-250, 10 HHR, 08 Outlook

Posts: 5,491
FF Reputation: 5 crazy_urn Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan50 View Post
Let's try this: compared to other similar situations and similar automakers (even including Ford), on a scale of 1 - 5, with 5 being best how would you rate the Focus DCT situation in terms of:

a) Releasing a good-quality product to the public, demonstrating both thorough pre-production testing and a willingness to hold back production if standards weren't met (like Chrysler just did with the Jeep Cherokee's transmission). Keeping in mind that it took the automotive press all of, say, 10 minutes in a DCT Focus to highlight the problem and that Ford has tons of DCT experience in Europe.

b) Promptly and efficiently dealing with problems when they become evident. Keeping in mind that Ford has spent three calendar years on this issue so far, and only called in the "A" team a year ago. Maybe it's fixed, but maybe not quite. Three years.

I give Ford a "1" in both categories. You may grade higher, but certainly not more than a "2".

This has less to do with corporate morality than it does corporate competence. Maybe the Focus experience was a low point for Ford, maybe they've learned a thing or two, maybe future launches will be better. But as a Focus owner, none of that mitigates my frustration and disappointment with Ford.
I agree that the grade would be appalling. But the grade really has much more to do with accounting than competency.

When you try to develop new vehicles, there will always be some bumps. Some of them are minor, some of them are not. (the pinto, the Expolorer/Firestone disaster, and the toyota unintended acceleration recall all come to mind.) Although it is frustrating for those dealing with the issue, the DCT is no where near that level of failure.

You can be pissed off at Ford. Trust me, I am about the SPI. But you can't assume any other manufacturer would act any differently. You can point out other manufacturers who acted differently, but each problem is different, hence, each solution (or lack there of) is different. And we, as consumers, simply do not have enough information to judge. With our limited information, assuming that company A responds better to customer complaints than company B is simply not possible.

At the end of the day, all we can say is, I wish Ford would handle this differently. We can't say, Chrysler, Honda, Chevy, Toyota, etc. would handle this situation differently. It all boils down to numbers, and if this were any other manufacturer, the numbers would not be any different.
__________________
Defending the reputation of the red-headed step-child of the focus world for far too long.
crazy_urn is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks & Social Networks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:52 PM.


Copyright 2002-2014 FocusFanatics.com. All Rights Reserved : Privacy Policy : Advertise Information

Focus Fanatics Ford Focus Forum offers many fun ways for you to engage with other Ford Focus Owners from across the world. Whether it be about the aftermarket performance modifications, technical how-to's, European tuned suspension or awesome fuel economy similar to the Audi S3, Ford Fusion and Acura TLX. You can find all Ford Focus and Focus ST related information here. Join our Ford Focus discussion forums and chat with local Focus enthusiasts in your area. Challenger Hellcat - Charger Hellcat