Trade-offs of running a high performance air filter on your MK3 - Page 3 - Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum
Ford Focus Forum
HomeContact UsAbout UsGalleryDiscussion ForumsMarketplace


Go Back   Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum > Ford Focus Third Generation > DURATEC Ti-VCT Performance (2012-Current)

DURATEC Ti-VCT Performance (2012-Current) The place to chat about any Duratec 2.0L Ti-VCT engine performance, tuning and exhaust related upgrades.

Search This Forum | Image Search | Advanced Search    
Ford Focus Tire & Wheels FocusFanatics Merchandise

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-27-2013, 11:18 AM   #21
wavsine
Focus Addict
 
wavsine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Fan#: 118470
Location: DFW, TX
What I Drive: 2013 Focus SE Oxford White Hatch 5m

Posts: 804
Points 13,638, Level 75
Points: 13,638, Level: 75 Points: 13,638, Level: 75 Points: 13,638, Level: 75
Level Up 97% Completed
Level up: 97% Level up: 97% Level up: 97%
Forum Activity 11%
Activity: 11% Activity: 11% Activity: 11%
FF Reputation: 12 wavsine Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
First, let me say I have been running K&N filters since the 70's. I have extensive experience using them in the real world. I have nothing against them. I also appreciate your dyno work and your contribution.

Confucius say: He who argues with mod soon feel door hitting him in a**. So before I go...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyn085 View Post
Why would you pull dyno work from other vehicles if we're talking about the Mk3 and there is dyno work of exactly the setup you're talking about? Why would you only pull dyno work that supports your claim when we have data that is directly pertinent to our vehicles and shows a definitive gain?
Here's why: You stated there was zero gain from a K&N drop in with the factory snorkel in place. Then you removed the snorkel and saw a gain of 6-8 hp.

And yet you also stated that simply removing the snorkel and leaving the OEM paper filter in place saw zero gain?

Paper filters are not that restrictive. Independent testing showed an actual average pressure drop differential of only 0.18 when comparing a paper filter to a K&N. Granted, it is an apples to oranges comparison since it is not the exact same paper filter BUT, I extrapolate from your data that the factory snorkel is indeed so restrictive that it can blunt all horsepower gains from a K&N drop in filter and yet removing that same restrictive snorkel saw zero gain with the paper filter. Was the paper filter you used in your testing a genuine Ford or Motorcraft FA-1908? Was it brand new or had it seen service? Did you do a dyno run with no filter at all for a baseline control?

Something is not right here. 8 hp from a 0.18 improvement in flow? That is why I sought out other data. K&N has a pretty bar chart on their site showing huge flow rate gains with their filters but independent testing seems to paint a far more conservative picture:

This author did Dwyer Manometer testing that yielded some surprising results:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest2.htm

The actual average pressure drop differential between a K&N and a paper filter used in this example above was only 0.18!

From the author of that test who incidentally runs K&N filters himself and has no bias:

"This means that there is very little if any power to be found from removing the air filter, much less changing the filter type. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyn085 View Post
You can consider my dyno work anecdotal if you want, but you have to realize that there aren't going to be many people that want to drop their hard-earned money on doing before and after dyno work.
Let me stop you right there. I was referring to the numerous anecdotal reports on the internet of people claiming power gains and losses with no data to back it up. Your dyno work is not anecdotal and that is not what I was referring to. You delivered hard numbers and I appreciate it. I am just trying to make sense of the data because it doesn't correlate with the minimal flow rate difference between the two filters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyn085 View Post
I also don't understand the witch-hunt against drop-in filters.
How could it be a witch hunt when I said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavsine View Post
If you operate your car in a dust free environment then I say go for it.
Where in that statement did I tell everybody to trash their K&N?

This thread is about trade-offs of running an oiled cloth filter, not telling everybody to throw them away.
Some of us live in dusty environments however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyn085 View Post
You can have perfect cleanliness by blocking off your intake path completely and you can have perfect flow by removing the filter completely. Neither end of the spectrum is perfect for a daily-driver.
I would love to see a dyno run sans air filter, with the factory snorkel and sans snorkel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyn085 View Post
This is an endless debate because those people that don't want to use them feel they have to stop everyone else from buying them. Considering how long these filters have been available (because there is a market that supports it), how many motors have had to be re-ringed and honed due to improper filtration?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with running a K&N or other brand of oiled cloth filter. (Just go easy on the oil to avoid MAF sensor problems)

I just think people should be fully informed of the risks/benefits of running high performance filters.
__________________
Use a Motorcraft FL-400S filter to increase filtration media and oil quantity. (Drop in for FL-910S)

Synthetic oil in GDI engines
www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324396

Last edited by wavsine; 12-01-2013 at 11:53 AM.
wavsine is online now  
    Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-02-2013, 11:40 PM   #22
dyn085
That Guy
 
dyn085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fan#: 98047
Location: Fayetteville, NC
What I Drive: 2014 FiST/FoST

Posts: 12,197
Points 23,724, Level 94
Points: 23,724, Level: 94 Points: 23,724, Level: 94 Points: 23,724, Level: 94
Level Up 38% Completed
Level up: 38% Level up: 38% Level up: 38%
Forum Activity 12%
Activity: 12% Activity: 12% Activity: 12%
FF Reputation: 49 dyn085 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavsine View Post
First, let me say I have been running K&N filters since the 70's. I have extensive experience using them in the real world. I have nothing against them. I also appreciate your dyno work and your contribution.

Confucius say: He who argues with mod soon feel door hitting him in a**. So before I go...

I don't have a problem with people arguing with me, so long as they are relatively coherent and can produce a legitimate discussion. You aren't one of the ones that argues simply for arguments sake, so no worries. I just don't translate that well via typed words.

Here's why: You stated there was zero gain from a K&N drop in with the factory snorkel in place. Then you removed the snorkel and saw a gain of 6-8 hp. True

And yet you also stated that simply removing the snorkel and leaving the OEM paper filter in place saw zero gain? Also true, though I don't have graphs to show for it.

Paper filters are not that restrictive. Independent testing showed an actual average pressure drop differential of only 0.18 when comparing a paper filter to a K&N. Granted, it is an apples to oranges comparison since it is not the exact same paper filter BUT, I extrapolate from your data that the factory snorkel is indeed so restrictive that it can blunt all horsepower gains from a K&N drop in filter and yet removing that same restrictive snorkel saw zero gain with the paper filter. Was the paper filter you used in your testing a genuine Ford or Motorcraft FA-1908? Was it brand new or had it seen service? Did you do a dyno run with no filter at all for a baseline control? OEM filter from a car with less than 2k miles. Obviously I don't remember their exact mileage, but it was from a buddies car that he had just purchased brand new a couple of weeks prior.

Something is not right here. 8 hp from a 0.18 improvement in flow? That is why I sought out other data. K&N has a pretty bar chart on their site showing huge flow rate gains with their filters but independent testing seems to paint a far more conservative picture:

This author did Dwyer Manometer testing that yielded some surprising results:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest2.htm

The actual average pressure drop differential between a K&N and a paper filter used in this example above was only 0.18!

From the author of that test who incidentally runs K&N filters himself and has no bias:

"This means that there is very little if any power to be found from removing the air filter, much less changing the filter type. "

I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily agree or disagree, but take into account that the pressure drop difference amounts to 7% of freed-up restriction. Granted that isn't a lot, but now add additional fuel to the additional air. Considering the fact that 8hp (using the high number for illustration) is only a 5% gain on 142 hp...


Let me stop you right there. I was referring to the numerous anecdotal reports on the internet of people claiming power gains and losses with no data to back it up. Your dyno work is not anecdotal and that is not what I was referring to. You delivered hard numbers and I appreciate it. I am just trying to make sense of the data because it doesn't correlate with the minimal flow rate difference between the two filters.

My only qualm is that we have access to vehicles, products, and test equipment. We have some data. Everybody wants data done 'their way' but no one wants to collect it. Because no one wants to collect it they keep falling back on data that is only similar in theory. That, in itself, is frustrating to me.


How could it be a witch hunt when I said this:
Where in that statement did I tell everybody to trash their K&N?

Witch hunt wasn't the best of terms but it is what came to mind. I've seen a few of these threads in the last 6 months with even the same graphs. Redundant threads are redundant.

This thread is about trade-offs of running an oiled cloth filter, not telling everybody to throw them away.
Some of us live in dusty environments however.

True, but to me that goes without saying. Filtration vs. flow is a handoff, and it's probably just clearer in my mind than it should be.

I would love to see a dyno run sans air filter, with the factory snorkel and sans snorkel.

Ditto.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with running a K&N or other brand of oiled cloth filter. (Just go easy on the oil to avoid MAF sensor problems)

I just think people should be fully informed of the risks/benefits of running high performance filters.
I've been meaning to respond to this, but Thanksgiving and yada, yada, yada. Got busy, forgot.
__________________
FocusFest 2013: Best of Show
Gateway FFW: Show Class Outstanding
September '13 ROTM
2014 FiST-
dyn085 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 07:54 PM   #23
RonMaiden
Focus Fanatic
 
RonMaiden's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Fan#: 99230
Location: Littleton, CO
What I Drive: 2012 Red Candy Metallic Hatch SE

Posts: 4,107
Points 4,098, Level 40
Points: 4,098, Level: 40 Points: 4,098, Level: 40 Points: 4,098, Level: 40
Level Up 74% Completed
Level up: 74% Level up: 74% Level up: 74%
Forum Activity 3%
Activity: 3% Activity: 3% Activity: 3%
FF Reputation: 6 RonMaiden Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
I love a good and informative back and forth threads.
__________________
'12 Focus Red Candy SE Sport 5 spd
'99 Toyota 4Runner Sport
'11 Subaru WRX STI Hatch
RonMaiden is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 08:20 PM   #24
wavsine
Focus Addict
 
wavsine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Fan#: 118470
Location: DFW, TX
What I Drive: 2013 Focus SE Oxford White Hatch 5m

Posts: 804
Points 13,638, Level 75
Points: 13,638, Level: 75 Points: 13,638, Level: 75 Points: 13,638, Level: 75
Level Up 97% Completed
Level up: 97% Level up: 97% Level up: 97%
Forum Activity 11%
Activity: 11% Activity: 11% Activity: 11%
FF Reputation: 12 wavsine Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyn085 View Post
I've been meaning to respond to this, but Thanksgiving and yada, yada, yada. Got busy, forgot.
Thanks Duane, I have learned a lot from you and I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I feel like I found a real gem when I acquired my second Focus this summer. Every time I get behind the wheel and wrap through the gears, it puts a smile on my face. I am looking forward to doing more mods on it.
__________________
Use a Motorcraft FL-400S filter to increase filtration media and oil quantity. (Drop in for FL-910S)

Synthetic oil in GDI engines
www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324396
wavsine is online now  
    Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2014, 08:53 AM   #25
Tigeo
Focus Addict
 
Tigeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Fan#: 113481
Location: Midlothian, VA
What I Drive: 2013 Ignot Silver Focus HB

Posts: 605
Points 2,872, Level 32
Points: 2,872, Level: 32 Points: 2,872, Level: 32 Points: 2,872, Level: 32
Level Up 82% Completed
Level up: 82% Level up: 82% Level up: 82%
Forum Activity 1%
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
FF Reputation: 1 Tigeo Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth View Post
That test is pouring dust in at an astronomical rate. Has little to do with a real world application other than if you live in some super dusty area where wind borne dust is a constant problem.
With the EPA and all, I never see any dust in my town. Maybe a trace of salt residue blown up off freeways in winter. Or around current construction sites.

Anyway, I used a K&N filter for over 100,000 miles on my last car (1999 SVT Contour) and would say the engine was as good as it could be after the 100,000 miles.

I plan on keeping my 2012 for at least ten years, and have ZERO qualms about using the K&N air filter on it. And expecting the engine to last with no problems of wear caused by the lack of filtration from the K&N.

Mainly the dust getting past the K&N is very fine particles. They will burn in the combustion and be blown out as soot.
Actually the one place the soot might make a problem is in the catalytic converters.. possibly accumilating there?

Anyway I have no problem running a K&N. The known benefits outweigh any imaginary issues.
Then no one has complained "MY engine is ruined because the rings wore out from all the dirt the K&N let in"

Where have you read that? no where. It does not happen. If it WAS a problem plenty of folks would be screaming about it all the time. You know the internet. 100 happy folks not a peep. one disgruntled person and a thousand posts complaining..
So all in all I am perfectly happy with my K&N.
Bam.
__________________
If its not grown it's mined!
2013 Ingot Silver Focus SE HB manual, 201a, winter pkg, moonroof. Snorkel delete/K&N drop-in and a bunch of little stuff. Great sticker placement.
Tigeo is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2014, 09:23 AM   #26
dyn085
That Guy
 
dyn085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fan#: 98047
Location: Fayetteville, NC
What I Drive: 2014 FiST/FoST

Posts: 12,197
Points 23,724, Level 94
Points: 23,724, Level: 94 Points: 23,724, Level: 94 Points: 23,724, Level: 94
Level Up 38% Completed
Level up: 38% Level up: 38% Level up: 38%
Forum Activity 12%
Activity: 12% Activity: 12% Activity: 12%
FF Reputation: 49 dyn085 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (5)
I don't know why I was just thinking this, but it would be nice if Google tested the long-term effects with their map cars. They put hundreds of thousands of miles on them in a short time period and are pretty meticulous with their maintenance from what I hear. Not that they would have a hugely vested interest, but their ability to track and sort data could very easily show a long term cost benefit/loss with the use of an aftermarket filter.

I'm obviously of belief that they are fine for normal use, but it would be nice to have a long-term study with engines that see a lot of duty. I would think that a sample study of 10-20 cars would give a wealth of pertinent information towards engine longevity and effects that can be associated with the use of non-paper filters. What I generally see in regards to this discussion is that we can't definitively know what effects there are over a long time period because data that could be effectively compared doesn't actually exist.
__________________
FocusFest 2013: Best of Show
Gateway FFW: Show Class Outstanding
September '13 ROTM
2014 FiST-
dyn085 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2014, 12:05 PM   #27
Tigeo
Focus Addict
 
Tigeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Fan#: 113481
Location: Midlothian, VA
What I Drive: 2013 Ignot Silver Focus HB

Posts: 605
Points 2,872, Level 32
Points: 2,872, Level: 32 Points: 2,872, Level: 32 Points: 2,872, Level: 32
Level Up 82% Completed
Level up: 82% Level up: 82% Level up: 82%
Forum Activity 1%
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
FF Reputation: 1 Tigeo Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
We basically have K&N saying that their filters increase flow while maintaining filtration. You have others online with data showing the opposite. You also have others that simply speculate and use “wive’s tails”.

How many engine failures have occurred b/c of poor filtration in the normal lifespan that most folks keep their cars (<100K)? I have no idea but I would speculate close to zero and those were probably due to gross negligence on the owner’s part.

Dyno data seem to indicate that using a free-flowing drop-in filters increase HP when combined with the removal of the intake snorkel – this makes sense to me.

To me, as a science-guy, I would like to see controlled dyno work including (and no other mods) on a stock Focus in a controlled environment:

Stock filter w/snorkel

Stock filter – snorkel

No snorkel or filter

High-flow drop-in filter w/snorkel

High-flow drop in filter – snorkel


I realize that Dyn already did some of this work.


Remember folks, one of the big advantages of using a K&N is the fact that you spend the money once (about two and change times the cost of a paper filter + the cleaning kit) and you never have to buy another filter. For me, that keeps a car 200K miles, I can save some money and I get a cool sticker for my airbox (1 filter/20K miles over 200K miles @ $20/filter = $200 - $60 for K&N and gear = $140 saved). Some of the “fun” of a K&N is cleaning it for the folks that enjoy maintenance. If this isn’t your cup of tea, a K&N will seem like a pain in the @ss. I am quite sure that the K&N, for the typical use of a highway commuter like me, is going to be just fine in terms of dirt control to the motor – I am going to pop mine open this weekend (I just hit 25K miles) and examine it and wipe the inside of the air tube to check for dirt/oil). Finally, I am sure K&N’s claims are a bit over-stated and why wouldn’t they be? This is how you sell your product!
__________________
If its not grown it's mined!
2013 Ingot Silver Focus SE HB manual, 201a, winter pkg, moonroof. Snorkel delete/K&N drop-in and a bunch of little stuff. Great sticker placement.

Last edited by Tigeo; 02-20-2014 at 04:18 PM.
Tigeo is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2014, 05:33 PM   #28
iminhell
C2H5OH
 
iminhell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Fan#: 36222
Location: Darwin, MN
What I Drive: 2000 & 2001 ZX3's

Posts: 10,611
Points 18,046, Level 85
Points: 18,046, Level: 85 Points: 18,046, Level: 85 Points: 18,046, Level: 85
Level Up 40% Completed
Level up: 40% Level up: 40% Level up: 40%
Forum Activity 29%
Activity: 29% Activity: 29% Activity: 29%
FF Reputation: 48 iminhell Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigeo View Post
Bam.
LMAO


See:
Quote:
Originally Posted by iminhell View Post
https://web.archive.org/web/20041009215037/http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

There is the original test data from the author.
Do keep in mind that the data is going on 10 years old and that is is specific to the the Chevy Duramax of the era. Filter design and requirements do vary from MFG to MFG.
iminhell is online now  
    Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2014, 06:41 PM   #29
sailor
"Elder"
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Fan#: 57268
Location: Williamsville, NY
What I Drive: 2004 Pitch Black ZTS 2.3 5spd.

Posts: 14,440
Points 9,721, Level 66
Points: 9,721, Level: 66 Points: 9,721, Level: 66 Points: 9,721, Level: 66
Level Up 18% Completed
Level up: 18% Level up: 18% Level up: 18%
Forum Activity 99%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
FF Reputation: 70 sailor Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
To throw in another Diesel anecdote:

(Diesels operate more hours in dustier environments so filtration gets more investigation)

Kubota had an issue with warranty claims from "dusted" (damaged due to dust ingestion) engines.

Outcome of investigation? Too much maintenance. (changing of filters)

Turned out that dust getting into the intake when the filters were changed was the cause of the engine failures, not an issue from dust passing through the filters. Final recommendation was to change filters only when a performance drop was noted or the filter gauge indicated too much restriction (like the gauge on older PZEV Foci) and make SURE to clean out any dust that got to the "clean side" of the intake tract in the process.

SO - Using care in changing filters is more important to engine longevity than what filter is used. A teaspoon of dust was proven to be enough to "dust" Kubota's small, close tolerance Diesel engines when ingested from a filter change done improperly. Keep the dirt where it belongs when changing filters & wipe out the intake side before installing a fresh one - your engine will thank you.
__________________
"Rubber Side Down"

S.R. #275
sailor is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2014, 06:41 PM   #30
Tigeo
Focus Addict
 
Tigeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Fan#: 113481
Location: Midlothian, VA
What I Drive: 2013 Ignot Silver Focus HB

Posts: 605
Points 2,872, Level 32
Points: 2,872, Level: 32 Points: 2,872, Level: 32 Points: 2,872, Level: 32
Level Up 82% Completed
Level up: 82% Level up: 82% Level up: 82%
Forum Activity 1%
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
FF Reputation: 1 Tigeo Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iminhell View Post
LMAO


See:
I have read it - interesting data. What I was referring to with "Bam" was the post I quoted regarding "Where have you read that? no where. It does not happen. If it WAS a problem plenty of folks would be screaming about it all the time. You know the internet. 100 happy folks not a peep. one disgruntled person and a thousand posts complaining..
So all in all I am perfectly happy with my K&N."

I should have quoted it better...just as being lazy.
__________________
If its not grown it's mined!
2013 Ingot Silver Focus SE HB manual, 201a, winter pkg, moonroof. Snorkel delete/K&N drop-in and a bunch of little stuff. Great sticker placement.
Tigeo is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks & Social Networks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:04 PM.


Copyright 2002-2014 FocusFanatics.com. All Rights Reserved : Terms of Use : Privacy Policy : Advertise Information

Focus Fanatics Ford Focus Forum offers many fun ways for you to engage with other Ford Focus Owners from across the world. Whether it be about the aftermarket performance modifications, technical how-to's, European tuned suspension or awesome fuel economy similar to the Acura TLX or Fiesta ST. You can find all Ford Focus and Focus ST related information here. Join our Ford Focus discussion forums and chat with local Focus enthusiasts in your area.