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Old 11-26-2013, 02:04 PM   #11
RonMaiden
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I've run aftermarket filters and never had any issues except for some of the foam filters which can be disastrous to turbo applications especially of they come apart but I've never had any issues with a K&N on my turbo cars.

I currently have been running one in my 4Runner for the last 10 years and have no worries about the one in my Focus.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:11 PM   #12
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this article demonstrate how the air filter might be an insignificant restriction when considering the whole intake. http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=111369
therefore paper filters which capture more dirt would be best.
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
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this article demonstrate how the air filter might be an insignificant restriction when considering the whole intake. http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=111369
therefore paper filters which capture more dirt would be best.
That's what my research is beginning to confirm. There are anecdotal stories of both small power gains and losses with K&N filters. The bottom line: is it worth the possible very small increase in power for the documented increase in dirt flow?

In regards to an earlier comment by Elizabeth, small dust particles are not always burned in the combustion chamber. I have read several accounts of UOAs coming back with higher silicon contamination after switching to a K&N filter.

BMW has a walnut shell blasting program for carbon fouled intake valves which they deem safe because small walnut shell particles do burn up in the combustion chamber and do no harm But when you start seeing higher silicon in a used oil analysis, that may mean potentially abrasive particles are making it through that are not being burned up.

If you operate your car in a dust free environment then I say go for it.

In Texas, it is simply not worth the risk for a marginal at best power gain.

We go to so much trouble running the very finest oil filters that can filter out very small particles and yet we may be negating that by letting dirt come in through the intake.
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavsine View Post
That's what my research is beginning to confirm. There are anecdotal stories of both small power gains and losses with K&N filters. The bottom line: is it worth the possible very small increase in power for the documented increase in dirt flow?
This is very case by case specific. and by case I mean car. until someone does a vacuum analysis on the ST and identified where the pressure drops are and how much at various points along the intake path both at idle and WOT and various points between one can not say definitively if a change in the filter flow rate will cause increase or decrease in performance. Has any one done a Focus ST stock filter vs K&N drop in filter?

On the Zetec, we found that switching to the SVT air intake box and a K&N gave equal performance as any shorty ram air intake.

K&N and others typical say they will filter 99% as good as paper filters. As stated on the Bob is the oil guy site, the 1% over the life of the car may mean something. I am not sure of any one who can point and say due to this properly maintained K&N air filter my vehicle prematurely failed. If you in high dust areas I would also recomend getting a pre-charger wrap if you are in a dusty location.

Most oil filters specify what they can filter also, sure some might say they ca filter 99.9% of particles 50 microns and smaller. but then they provide the brake down and its really 99% from 40-50 and 50% from 40-30 and 10% of 30 and smaller. then some other filter might say they do 99.9% and its a different brake down.

Given this: http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm

It is known that manufactures have to warranty the motor for the 100k miles or what ever it is now days regardless of filter used.


The link below is what you want to compare against:
http://www.knfilters.com/faq.htm#21

Try to find other ISO rated %'s and compare. I do not know what the other Amsoil filters or other paper filters are. I am not sure if they will even post them in some cases.

bottom line is we need to have someone provide dyno results to show if a drop in filter has an impact on performance. and then you have to identify if you think the 1% extra it might not filter will cause damage to your motor or not. If people had cars failing left and right from using K&N you would see a lot more message boards and engine builders, and others saying dont use K&N.
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:39 PM   #15
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This thread will be an endless debate.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:04 PM   #16
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This thread will likely go on forever as the previous poster said but food for thought:

1. Those very fine particles of dust will erode a very strong nickel alloy in turbos. Don't think for a second that those same particles won't polish a bore (and not in a good way) and who here has successfully "burned" silicon/sand and made it into a harmless gas? The last time I checked, sand was used to put out fires because it doesn't burn.

2. Can anyone really prove that K&N has spent lots of $$$ on "research" of their product. Oily cloth is hardly a new idea. For the handful of claims on engines "proven" to be damaged by filters used as directed (and I suggest very few will meet this critera) paying for that engine will be the cost of doing business.

3. If paper filters are so bad and the horsepower wars are so intense at the factories, why do OEM's continue to use paper if they can gain horsepower by using oiled rags as filters.

Discuss.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:09 PM   #17
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Because a paper filter is cheaper.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:34 PM   #18
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Because a paper filter is cheaper.
Slightly jaded view, but not unreasonable considering the history of bean counters that work for big companies. But consider that the 2013 Camaro puts out 426hp vs 420 for Mustang. If a simple air filter made of cloth increases horsepower, it would stand to reason that even if it narrowed the gap to 424hp, Ford should do it just for marketing reasons. My jaded view is the marginal cost increase for a cloth filter is far overshadowed by warranty claims for thousands of vehicles that operate in drier (dusty) climates.
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Old 11-27-2013, 04:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavsine View Post
That's what my research is beginning to confirm. There are anecdotal stories of both small power gains and losses with K&N filters. The bottom line: is it worth the possible very small increase in power for the documented increase in dirt flow?

In regards to an earlier comment by Elizabeth, small dust particles are not always burned in the combustion chamber. I have read several accounts of UOAs coming back with higher silicon contamination after switching to a K&N filter.

BMW has a walnut shell blasting program for carbon fouled intake valves which they deem safe because small walnut shell particles do burn up in the combustion chamber and do no harm But when you start seeing higher silicon in a used oil analysis, that may mean potentially abrasive particles are making it through that are not being burned up.

If you operate your car in a dust free environment then I say go for it.

In Texas, it is simply not worth the risk for a marginal at best power gain.

We go to so much trouble running the very finest oil filters that can filter out very small particles and yet we may be negating that by letting dirt come in through the intake.
Why would you pull dyno work from other vehicles if we're talking about the Mk3 and there is dyno work of exactly the setup you're talking about? Why would you only pull dyno work that supports your claim when we have data that is directly pertinent to our vehicles and shows a definitive gain?

You can consider my dyno work anecdotal if you want, but you have to realize that there aren't going to be many people that want to drop their hard-earned money on doing before and after dyno work. In all actuality, the only reason that I did was because my friend owned a dyno so I didn't have to pay rates comparable to the average Joe. I gained absolutely nothing by collecting the data and sharing it with the community.

I also don't understand the witch-hunt against drop-in filters. Most Americans aren't going to keep their vehicle long enough to have to deal with issues as it is, and that is under the assumption that there is an actual reason to be concerned. For every person that wants to argue that these types of filters are going to destroy an engine there are hundreds of people like me that have been running these filters on everything I've owned for years and never seen even the slightest symptom on any of their motors having problems.

Under the assumption that there was actual data supporting higher silicon numbers, that would tell me that the lubrication system is working. I think that everyone whom installs an aftermarket filter should be of sound enough mind to realize that there is an amount of risk with opening up your intake path for better flow. You can have perfect cleanliness by blocking off your intake path completely and you can have perfect flow by removing the filter completely. Neither end of the spectrum is perfect for a daily-driver.

The engine inlet barrier filters utilized on Blackhawks and Kiowas are K&N oiled filters. They work surprisingly well. Granted, this is in lieu of a completely open intake. But why doesn't the military just use paper filters if paper filters are so much better?

This is an endless debate because those people that don't want to use them feel they have to stop everyone else from buying them. Considering how long these filters have been available (because there is a market that supports it), how many motors have had to be re-ringed and honed due to improper filtration?
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Old 11-27-2013, 05:05 AM   #20
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Actually, let me correct what I just said. I will go as far as agreeing that there is no power gain by simply doing the drop-in filter when not doing the snorkel delete. That is indeed true.

But there is a benefit that most all Mk3 owners would appreciate by having done just the drop-in: throttle response is improved. So for all of those members that can't stand the hesitation between pressing the throttle and the car actually responding-they will appreciate the money spent. For those that don't want to spend the money on a tune, this is always the first thing I recommend.

A perfectly clean engine is pretty much worthless if your car hesitates pulling out into traffic and you get hit.
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