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Old 06-26-2013, 04:38 PM   #11
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Right, but the actual cause of wheel hop is the rapid toe-in/out of the alignment when the tires grip and lose grip.

Wheel hop is NOT caused by a soft engine mount. If you had a soft engine mount and solid suspension bushings, you wouldn't have wheel hop. You might eat through your axles once a week, but you wouldn't have wheel hop.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
Can you elaborate on your thoughts? What else causes wheel hop under hard acceleration?
Variation of torque and traction, vertical forces exerted by acceleration combined with high unsprung mass. etc.

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Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
Right, but the actual cause of wheel hop is the rapid toe-in/out of the alignment when the tires grip and lose grip.
You're partly right... It is caused by the tires rapidly gaining and losing grip, but toe angle changes are not the only cause. If changes in toe are the only cause of wheel hop, please explain why it occurs in on rear live axles.
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:29 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by TboneZX3 View Post
Variation of torque and traction, vertical forces exerted by acceleration combined with high unsprung mass. etc.



You're partly right... It is caused by the tires rapidly gaining and losing grip, but toe angle changes are not the only cause. If changes in toe are the only cause of wheel hop, please explain why it occurs in on rear live axles.
Rear wheel drive/live axle wheel hop is caused by the forceful twisting of the rear axle. On a Corvette, this action causes the leaf springs to distort and the tires will break traction.
On Mustangs, wheel hop is just from having a loose rear end. A collection of soft bushings allow too much movement when the diff is under load from the driveline so it bounces around. Newer Mustangs have reduced wheel hop thanks to a better design, but an amateur driver will likely experience it.
IRS vehicles suffer the same as FWD. Rapid changes in toe are the root cause. Most performance vehicles with IRS have more solid setups, like BMW, Mercedes, etc. You'll see more wheelhop from domestics like Camaro and Challenger/Charger that have suspensions geared more for comfort.

RWD and FWD wheel hop have different root causes based on the design and setup but the cure is always stiffer bushings in the suspension. Some people go for softer sidewall tires, engine mounts, or blame it on driver error, but wheel hop, in every instance, is completely eliminated with solid bushings. No one in their right mind would use solid bushings on a street car, but some racers use them as well as traction bars and other methods of suspension strengthening.

Wheel hop, for everyone, is caused by movement in the suspension. Engine mounts will have little or no effect on wheel hop. Some people install engine mounts as a way of eliminating wheel hop & while they can say they don't notice wheel hop after the installation, they still haven't cured the cause which is and always will be a sloppy suspension. All you're doing by installing an engine mount is equalizing the weight transfer under hard acceleration. This helps the suspension do it's job so it's possible to install a mount and say you've gotten rid of wheel hop, but you haven't really.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
Rear wheel drive/live axle wheel hop is caused by the forceful twisting of the rear axle.
Well, yes, but that itself is usually not the cause of the wheel hop in a live rear axle. The twisting causes phase-angle issues between the drive shaft and the rear differential. This causes varying acceleration of the pinion, and thus wheel hop. Sorry, but toe change is NOT always the root cause of wheel hop, and this further supports that fact. There are MANY forces that can cause torque and traction to vary under hard acceleration to the extent of causing wheel hop.

While I wouldn't state outright that a soft engine mount is the cause of wheel hop, there are forces that cause wheel hop that can be dampened further by stiffer engine mounts and reduce the effect of those forces. Therefore, I would also state that a soft engine mount will more easily allow those forces propagate and initiate wheel hop.

This is somewhat similar to what you're saying here:

Quote:
All you're doing by installing an engine mount is equalizing the weight transfer under hard acceleration. This helps the suspension do it's job so it's possible to install a mount and say you've gotten rid of wheel hop, but you haven't really.
...but you're ignoring a factor. The horizontal, vertical and rotational movement of the engine (i.e. slop in engine mounts, especially a roll-restrictor) can cause non-linear variations in torque and acceleration to the wheels and, therefore, variations in traction which are the cause of wheel hop. This can be compared to the effects of the phase angle issue I mentioned above in live rear axles.

I'm curious. What have you to say to the many people who have installed stiffer engine mounts on FWD vehicles and, through the function described above, experienced reduced wheel hop under hard acceleration?
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:09 AM   #15
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double post...
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:40 AM   #16
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You can skirt around it all you want, but a suspension comprised of solid bushings will NOT experience wheel hop, regardless of what kind of engine mounts you have.

You can install a solid/stiff engine mount to reduce wheel hop, but a mount is only marginally affecting the efficiency at which the suspension can operate.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
You can install a solid/stiff engine mount to reduce wheel hop
Congratulations. You have finally accepted reality! Obviously, if that's true, then there are forces that exist beyond undesirable suspension movements that can cause wheel hop.

If presenting you with factual alternatives to what you say is the ONLY reason why wheel hop can occur is "skirting", then I will admit, I'm skirting.

I will end with some very good advice from an acquaintance that you may consider:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac.mogul
Please read and be educated.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:21 PM   #18
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I guess you weren't reading everything I said...

A stiffer mount will have little to no effect on wheel hop. It's not modifying the suspension - the root of the cause - to operate differently, it is only allowing it to work more effectively.

In short: Motor mount does not equal cure for wheel hop.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
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In short: Motor mount does not equal cure for wheel hop.
I don't believe anyone in this thread ever said it did. You seem to think that someone here is stating that stiffer engine mounts are the "cure all" for wheel hop.

My point all along has been simply that the suspension movement is not the only factor in creating forces that result in wheel hop.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
I guess you weren't reading everything I said...
No, I read every word. However, I must say that it's difficult to figure out what you're saying exactly when you contradict yourself.

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Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
--- Motor mounts have little or no effect on wheel hop ---
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
You can install a solid/stiff engine mount to reduce wheel hop, but a mount is only marginally affecting the efficiency at which the suspension can operate.
So, they have little to no effect on wheel hop, yet you can install one to reduce wheel hop...

I've tried to explain to you the forces (nonlinear variation in torque and acceleration through the drive shaft due to engine movement) that can cause fluctuation in traction, and thus wheel hop. Those forces have NOTHING to do with the suspension, and everything to do with engine movement. Therefore, installing stiffer engine mounts will dampen/reduce those forces. It's very similar to how stiffer suspension bushings will dampen/reduce the forces that cause undesirable suspension movements. All of these forces contribute to wheel hop. Reducing enough of the total forces causing the issue will reduce or possibly eliminate wheel hop. That is why both suspension upgrades or engine mount upgrades can reduce the occurrence of wheel hop.

Look at it this way... Folks here are not going to install solid bushings on their daily driver, so even if that would eliminate 100% of the forces that can cause wheel hop (and it wouldn't, though it would likely reduce the forces enough to eliminate wheel hop), it would be a rather moot point, wouldn't it? We have established that motor mounts DO IN FACT reduce wheel hop through theory and experience (as even you stated above), so that is one alternative that a Focus owner may take to reduce the occurrence of wheel hop to a satisfactory level.
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:33 PM   #20
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I think the issue here is that you don't quite understand the cause of the symptom.

Wheel hop is the symptom. On this we can all agree.

Wheel hop is caused when the tires lose and gain traction rapidly due to flexibility in the suspension. This is a fact.

If you remove any flexibility from the suspension, there is no chance for wheel hop to occur, regardless of what type of engine mount you are using. This is why drag racers install traction bars and other suspension braces.

When you install a stiffer engine mount, you are not modifying the suspension. The mount itself has absolutely no bearing on the suspension components. One benefit to having a stiff motor mount is a more rigid drivetrain which improves, among other things, weight transfer under hard acceleration. This improvement in weight transfer is what allows the suspension components to work more efficiently under hard acceleration.

By installing a stiffer motor mount, you've only slightly changed the variables that induce wheel hop. You haven't fixed anything.

To the OP: If you want to effectively reduce wheel hop, you need to strengthen your suspension, first and foremost.
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