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Old 08-19-2013, 05:05 PM   #1
Magus2727
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Comp vs. Crane vs. Crower

I am looking at cams for my head. I am going to be going FI at some point in this motors life as that is what the bottom is built for. but for the time being I will be NA for a while. I am looking at Stage 3 as that is what I have been advised on. I am keeping the stock cams so when I go FI I can sell the cams I am getting and put the stock ones back on.

It looks like there are 3 companies (I am sure there are others) I am looking at.

Comp (108300), Crane (223-0014) and Crower (62503-2).

It looks like the Comp cams are the only ones that advertise that they dont need new springs and retainers and will work with the stock drive train. the lift on the Comp's are only 381/381. the stock cams are 350/342 so these are fairly mild of a lift compared to the Crower that have 433/413

But the duration is the longest on the Comp with 289/289 vs the Crower's 268/260 and Cranes 240/236. stock is 206/204

So what is more important on the Zetec for NA build, Lift or Duration? Likely is a combination of both... I really dont want to spend the $ on new springs & retainers at the moment. So it sounds like Comp Cams would be best since they dont increase the lift as much as the others (which is the larger factor in requiring new springs).

In my searching it looks like I came across a thread that Sleepboy listed the 2 Comp cams 108300 and the 108200 and said he did not know when window shopping which he would have gone with. the 108300 is the more "aggressive" cam.

Thanks for the help.


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Old 08-20-2013, 03:17 AM   #2
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I'd be checking those durations again, the spread between min and max is not eighty degrees. Somewhere there at least one of those grinds is measuring by a different method than the others. Or common grinders tricks. Specs measured at .004"? .040"? .050"? You gotta watch them guys.............

Most cam lobes end up being very close to same profile to stop valve bouncing, meaning that yes after a point lift will require duration to come up to match ideal lobe shape. Other than that, loose rule of thumb says lift gets you power pretty close to everywhere while duration alone pushes power band higher up and narrower, costing bottom end. The vast tuning black hole of being able to put dual cams where you want will modify that quite a bit.

Why say dirt cars pulling low rpm off a corner use really big lift and relatively short duration, while max rpm drag cars go for big duration and screw low rpm.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:21 AM   #3
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You are right I was going off advertised duration (kind of assuming that could be some what comparable since I was use advertised from each)

at 0.050" lift its the following:

Crane: 218/214
Crower: 238/230
Comp: 236/236

I am guessing the crower are closer to the comp due to having so much more lift it just physically has more duration at 0.050" or more.

So with the Comp having a lower lift and longer duration will likely have more of an impact on my bottom end then the Crowers that have about equal duration as the Comp but also have increased lift?

but I guess if I dont want to spend the money on new springs then the Comps are really the only option.

I cam across the following post:
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/s....php?p=2867731

it looks like the stock valve train can do .390" of lift (with some saying .412") before you need new springs.

I think I have calculate the over lap of the Comps to being +12. the Crower stage 2 is -4, the stage 3 is +6. the Crane stage 3 are -5

Stock appears to be -17 in lobe overlap

This is using the (Intake Duration @.050" + Exh Duration @.050") /4 -lobe separation angle (LSA) * 2

overlap sounds like it causes problems for vac at idle and increase blow by. (non ideal for turbo, thus why the stock cams are best for FI applications.

using the information in the above link the Crane cams stage 3 appear to be perhaps the best cams. They still have a negative lobe overlap so will get no blow by so may have better vac at idle. the lobe separation is 110.5 vs the 112 and 114 which I have read that the 110 is a better number to be around. the lift is higher .390 and per the statements I have read that can handle stock valve train.

However they say the recommended application is for a compression ratio of 10.5:1 to 12:1 and I will be sitting at about 9.1:1 They also say the range is from 3k to 8k RPM that a bit higher than the Comp's that have 2.2k to 7.4k RPM

I hate this kind of stuff. Has anyone ever done a cam shaft shoot out that shows using a stock head what the power curves look like using the different cams?
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:40 PM   #4
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Lobe centers and overlap are moot point as I said (the black hole), you can muddy those up instantly just by degreeing cam in differently. Numbers not locked in to each other like on a single cam motor. You can almost create a new custom cam profile yourself by simply changing up the degree-in. Why I love DOHC..........

I myself never go for max output cam unless a better head (read that ported) used, that makes it all come together. Others here may not say that, but then my head work would be free, and even though I have no dyno access now, they all ran much better after I ground on them. While different engines have different likes/dislikes as far as exact porting details, if you do enough of them you get a feel for what will work better overall and no dyno needed. We used the strip mostly as a dyno, and the modded heads never EVER went slower. I suspect this DOHC head when ported would work out the same as the motorcycle heads of same design. Or run better too. It's just another head.

Small engines and max cams make for drudgery driving a street car.

I am no expert on hotrodding this particular engine even though I've done plenty of hotrod motors. I'm sure Tom could be much more specific with exact recommendations.

You HATE this stuff??? Aw, that's the fun of it, someone has to be the trailblazer. The more you study the numbers the more sense you'll make of it. All the cam people are big bullsh-tters is rule #1.

'So with the Comp having a lower lift and longer duration will likely have more of an impact on my bottom end then the Crowers that have about equal duration as the Comp but also have increased lift?'

With all else being equal yes. Remember what I said about degreeing in, you can effectively kill some duration by degree numbers, or fake having more too. Big fight going on there. If you spread cams apart via lobe center then you pick up early exhaust and late intake which both enhance upper rpm and lose bottom end, but you lose overlap, which can do the same thing. But you want that on boosted motor. Overlap effect based a lot on the quality of the exhaust system, or a good header versus crap. A good header is a must-have when hotrodding, I think many are crap for these engines. The so-called 'shorty' header, or garbage to me. Heck the stock zetec header almost that good.

Anything over like 230 duration @ .050" intake would most likely be shied away from by cam maker if car is ATX, so some idea of the bottom end you're giving up there. Need a custom converter to use the longer timing to get easily higher in power band.

Most important timing point is intake closing, you close it late for high rpm ram effect (reason for recommendation of higher compression by cam maker, it offsets the late closing) or close early to preserve or increase slightly compression if it's low. Compression is only a number, it is modified by the cam numbers to a real world effect.
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:49 PM   #5
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I should point out that 4 valve heads do not inertia ram as well when intake held open later, they do not form the inertia cone as well defined as bigger single valves do. Something to think about when delaying intake closing point. 4 valve gets its extra flow from the added valve open window area. In short, they need less time to get the same amount of intake charge in. Why 4 valve cams often seem shorter in duration than 2 valve designs do. Less IS more in this case.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:00 PM   #6
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Thanks for the info.

Its not that I hate this stuff exactly. I have learned more about cams in the last 24 hours (and gives me something to look at and research when slow at work). and I love that bit. Although its difficult to know what exactly applies to us 4 pot 16 valve DOHC people vs the small and big blocks with the single cam. There is a lot more info on them... at least what I have found.

I have read that the stage 1 and 2's are not worth is and that Stage 3's are where its at. its just which stage 3. apparently the idle is not impacted that much. most people w/o cams rise the idle a little bit. so that would be almost no different.

What I find frustrating is that this is a 2001 car, the Zetec is older then that. so I guess i just expect to have found more comparison between cams.

After listening to youtube videos stage 2 sounds good and Stage 3 sound mean. while the sounds though does not really show anything about power gains or actual drivability its a nice to know.

Also to note: The car is a MTX-75 w/ 4.06 gears. the bottom end motor is built, will have higher performance oil pump to safely take to 7,400+ RPMS if power is there with cams. It will be a daily driver, but plan on getting involved in track days and other motor sport events which I will take the car to.

Guess the thing is can I trust that the notes about the Comp Cams saying they can use the stock valve train seriously? or should that be upgraded regardless of the cams I choose? Stock head has about 150,000 miles of likely higher than "normal" driving (more spirited).

Edit: It looks like with me having the MTX I can handle the larger duration, I also have the 4.06 gears so I have "better" gearing.. Comp Cams say stock valve train on both the "stage 2" and "stage 3" so its the debate between the two. The Comp cams are also "identical" for intake and exhaust which makes dyno adjustments better? or is it better to have two different cut cams for the car?

Thanks.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:23 PM   #7
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I'd for sure go thru the head= SS valve's & a mild port job, just to clean the ports up a little. And of course you'll do springs/retainers/seals. Or see if you can find a FRPP's head.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:29 PM   #8
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Have not been able to find a FRPP's head I think people are holding on to them.

I have found a local mechanic that does a lot of head work and does full spec Miata builds. the Zetec is different but is a similar motor. So was going to have them rebuild the head. so they should be able to clean things up, do some light porting, cut the valves right and all the other head work.

I have all the stock valve train, are you saying I should change out for new valves and the Crower springs / retainers? The hope with the Comp cams is since they say they can use stock valve train they would be "drop in" as they advertise.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:35 PM   #9
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true but if you rebuild it now and build it stronger than stock then you can avoid having to come back to do it later. and you WILL be turning higher rpms with these cams and the springs and retainers from crower will eliminate valve float.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:45 PM   #10
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^^ yes but springs and retainers can always be swaped out at a later date also with out pulling the head.
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