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Old 03-09-2013, 09:55 AM   #71
mac.mogul
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The ONLY reason Chevrolet is introducing diesel engines is so they can lower their fleet average MPG. The Cruze is a volume seller and if they give it a diesel option they can make ridiculous claims about the company's overall fuel efficiency.

America, in general, is too stupid to have diesel cars. If a manufacturer brought out a volume priced diesel lineup, they would have to have "DIESEL" graphics plastered all over their cars to prevent owners from putting the wrong fuel in, and you can bet people would still do it then try to make warranty claims and all kinds of courtroom nonsense because this is America and that behavior is acceptable.

The only people in America who have or want diesel cars are diesel enthusiasts and people who like math & hate everything else aka, engineers.

Typical automotive enthusiasts don't want diesel because of the poor performance it offers, like power delivery and the lack of 'fun' when you push the go pedal.

As it was already mentioned, Diesel engines are more expensive to build, more expensive to own, more expensive to repair and when the engines do go wrong, its usually catastrophic in some way or another.

I believe Ford has the right idea for the NA market where smaller, turbo-charged, fuel efficient gasoline engines are used. Gasoline is the proper fuel for an internal combustion engine and I believe that even with over 100 years of use, we have yet to harness the potential for gasoline. Besides, we all know that Hydrogen is the fuel of the future; we just need better ways to bring it into mass use.
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:03 PM   #72
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I'm sure I would be. Although probably not as amazed as by the number of people in these fora, who have all these confidential sources. That's truly amazing.
Well glad your amazed.
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:21 PM   #73
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The ONLY reason Chevrolet is introducing diesel engines is so they can lower their fleet average MPG. The Cruze is a volume seller and if they give it a diesel option they can make ridiculous claims about the company's overall fuel efficiency.

America, in general, is too stupid to have diesel cars. If a manufacturer brought out a volume priced diesel lineup, they would have to have "DIESEL" graphics plastered all over their cars to prevent owners from putting the wrong fuel in, and you can bet people would still do it then try to make warranty claims and all kinds of courtroom nonsense because this is America and that behavior is acceptable.

The only people in America who have or want diesel cars are diesel enthusiasts and people who like math & hate everything else aka, engineers.

Typical automotive enthusiasts don't want diesel because of the poor performance it offers, like power delivery and the lack of 'fun' when you push the go pedal.

As it was already mentioned, Diesel engines are more expensive to build, more expensive to own, more expensive to repair and when the engines do go wrong, its usually catastrophic in some way or another.

I believe Ford has the right idea for the NA market where smaller, turbo-charged, fuel efficient gasoline engines are used. Gasoline is the proper fuel for an internal combustion engine and I believe that even with over 100 years of use, we have yet to harness the potential for gasoline. Besides, we all know that Hydrogen is the fuel of the future; we just need better ways to bring it into mass use.
VW has had diesel for years in the US. Chevy, Ford and Dodge have had diesel trucks forever, not too many folks have dropped gas in the tanks. MB, BMW, Audi, VW and Jeep have offered diesel in the last 10 years.

I hate math, not an engineer, I like small displacement diesels because I have seen what they are capable of after living in Europe for 13 years, were 60% cars sold are diesel. I love my small diesel but hate the fact that DC never PROPERLY trainined the techs for working on it. I would never have had the issues I had if I was still in Germany with properly trained mechanics to replace my timing belt.

Looking back at repairs, nothing was really more expensive than the Foci and Renault I own. What was expensive was the untrained dealer doing service on it and causing my engine to fail after 500 miles from service. My engine was a $900 option, just above the $795 sunroof option.

95% of the people that ride in my Jeep cannot belive it is a diesel I4 due to the power it has. Although I have modified the suspension a little and upgraded the brakes, most are blown away as to how well it performs and handles.

Shorter shifts and using the torque band will yeld performance most could not beleive possible. You have to know how to drive a diesel first to extract the maximum performance from it.

I so wish I had BD available here as it runs better, cleaner and quieter than with normal diesel fuel.
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:30 PM   #74
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From what I can see, that math doesn't work out to savings. Gas is only 86 percent of the cost of diesel (3.45/gal for gas, 3.99/gal for diesel here yesterday), so unless we see a diesel engine getting somewhere around 48 or 49 mpg at 60 mph (I get right at 39 to 40 mpg at 60 mph with my focus) do we overcome the extra costs of purchase and fuel within 100,000 miles of driving.

100,000 miles at 48 mpg takes 2,083.3 gallons at $3.99 for $8,312 in fuel costs.

100,000 miles at 39 mpg takes 2,564.1 gallons at $3.45 for 8,846 in fuel costs.

That's 500 dollars difference in 100,000 miles.

Let's give diesel the benefit of the doubt in a BIG way. 35 mpg for gas, 55 mpg for a diesel (this is a pipe dream, but I'm trying to be fair to your position).

100,000 miles at 55 mpg takes 1818.18 gallons at $3.99 for $7254.54 in fuel costs.

100,000 miles at 35 mpg takes 2857.14 gallons at $3.45 for $9857.14 in fuel costs.

So, now even with the latter scenario, you subtract the 2,000 dollars more for the diesel engine, you've saved a whopping 602.00. Seeing that a diesel engine's oil change is going to cost you an extra 40 dollars (for a SMALL diesel engine) every 5,000 miles, or 800 dollars over the 100,000 miles, I say you still lose the cost contest by about 200 bucks. And I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that the diesel will be equally fun to drive in all of this.

Let's talk Compressed Natural Gas filling up at home, running gasoline on long trips where you can't easily find CNG. Now I'm interested in savings.
$8 for an extra liter of Mobile 1 5W40 ESP with MB 119.51 cert.

Filter from NAPA is like $8-10 same as for the Foci

Similar KJ with the 3.7L gas are getting well below mine and other CRD KJ's in the towing field and cannot come near the 7700lbs. Even if you did 5000lbs the 3.7 per folks reporting on the KJ forum are only getting 12mpg at best, while the CRD folks are reporting between 20-23mpg. The 3.7 is know to have overheating issues with this type of weight as the CRD does not. I'm currently driving a 2012 KK 3.7 and it is getting HALF the MPG my KK was getting and i'm trying to baby it.
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Old 03-09-2013, 03:33 PM   #75
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10 years
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13 years
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Originally Posted by jinstall View Post
60% cars sold
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500 miles
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Originally Posted by jinstall View Post
$900 option
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$795 sunroof option
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Originally Posted by jinstall View Post
95% of the people
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$8 for an extra liter of Mobile 1 5W40 ESP with MB 119.51 cert
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Filter from NAPA is like $8-10 same as for the Foci
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7700lbs
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5000lbs
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12mpg at best
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between 20-23mpg
Quote:
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I hate math
For someone who hates math, you certainly aren't afraid to use numbers.
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:21 PM   #76
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You obviously have a jaded view of the modern Diesel engine and performance. Might you take a look at the Audi R8 V12 TDI?.........
Jaded view? Oh please. Let's look at real production cars, not laboratory experiments touted thru Audi propaganda. How many R8 V12 TDI's have been sold and at what cost? None, and that goes for Europe too. It's a dead concept car because it involved out-of-control cost estimates and unresolvable production issues. Upon it's release, the new 4.2L V8 gas version cost a whopping $120k and diesel was not viable.

The Audi's monsterous concept V12 diesel motor offered 160HP less than the latest V8 GT-500 Mustang at something approaching triple the cost. This is comparing a primitive PRODUCTION ponycar to a flagship concept car. Whoopie.....I have seen modified Dodge Ram cummins power trucks that outrun a Viper GTS in a drag race, but they are not sold to the public for countless reasons. Part of the problem may be an EPA-illegal choking black firey smoke stack plume that looks like a 500megawatt coal power station feeding electric to a city. No, it isn't because Dodge prefers Viper to be slower than Ram truck.

As I stated before, in some cases the current race rules are favoring diesel cars in an effort to promote the technology. However it needs to be known that gas powered cars like Viper are being penalized. The race versions have horsepower restrictions imposed by the sanctioning body so they are slower than 100% stock cars sold at your dealership. Uneducated people watch these lobotomized sports cars duking it out with concept cars or sedans with power adders on Speednet TV then assume such "performance parity" exists in the showroom. Couldn't be further from the truth.

PS: a lack of interest in math calculations can lead to buying econobox diesels under the false pretense that they offer some cost advantage. Some diesels save money, others don't.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:14 PM   #77
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For someone who hates math, you certainly aren't afraid to use numbers.
You should see his sources.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:07 PM   #78
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For someone who hates math, you certainly aren't afraid to use numbers.
Math
n. (used with a sing. verb)
The study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols.


No I am not afraid to use numbers, numbers alone are not math. My dad is a retired high school math teacher so you would think I was good at it.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:41 PM   #79
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Jaded view? Oh please. Let's look at real production cars, not laboratory experiments touted thru Audi propaganda. How many R8 V12 TDI's have been sold and at what cost? None, and that goes for Europe too. It's a dead concept car because it involved out-of-control cost estimates and unresolvable production issues. Upon it's release, the new 4.2L V8 gas version cost a whopping $120k and diesel was not viable.

The Audi's monsterous concept V12 diesel motor offered 160HP less than the latest V8 GT-500 Mustang at something approaching triple the cost. This is comparing a primitive PRODUCTION ponycar to a flagship concept car. Whoopie.....I have seen modified Dodge Ram cummins power trucks that outrun a Viper GTS in a drag race, but they are not sold to the public for countless reasons. Part of the problem may be an EPA-illegal choking black firey smoke stack plume that looks like a 500megawatt coal power station feeding electric to a city. No, it isn't because Dodge prefers Viper to be slower than Ram truck.

As I stated before, in some cases the current race rules are favoring diesel cars in an effort to promote the technology. However it needs to be known that gas powered cars like Viper are being penalized. The race versions have horsepower restrictions imposed by the sanctioning body so they are slower than 100% stock cars sold at your dealership. Uneducated people watch these lobotomized sports cars duking it out with concept cars or sedans with power adders on Speednet TV then assume such "performance parity" exists in the showroom. Couldn't be further from the truth.

PS: a lack of interest in math calculations can lead to buying econobox diesels under the false pretense that they offer some cost advantage. Some diesels save money, others don't.
R8 TDI, your right it is not in production, I stand corrected. I have the ability to admit I am wrong.

Your comparing a Mustang to a R8? Really? Not even in the same league.

I have seen VW Golf's out run Dodge Vipers, what does that have to do with small displacement diesels?

Dodge Vipers do not compete in the same class as the TDI's from Audi and Peugeot. Mazda at least put the 6 diesel in the 24 Daytona, at the absolute last second, without and shakedown runs this year. Try as they might, they dropped all but one out of the race.

VW has been successfully running the TDI CUp series here in the USA with off the shelf parts that you can get from the dealer. Even the 170hp ECU reflash carries a warranty from VW. They have been running the series for a fiew years now.

So far no one here seems to own a small displacement diesel, except me.

NAIAS it was annouced that Audi, BMW and Mercedes would all be expanding their diesel engine options in 2013.

Gasoline is not renewable, E85 has proven it is not an alternative for gas by poor MPG and destroying emission control systems. Diesel on the other hand can be made from alternate sources and burns cleaner doing so. Currently one of these developers has a Bonnville LSR Chevy S-10 running on pure alge BD. They are co sponsered by the University of Utah, if I remember correctly from speaking with them at the Washington Int Auto Show last year.

Speednet TV? What is this? It is not on my providers channel line up.

When did I say I had a lack of interest in Math? Owning a small displacement diesel since 2006, I have seen the savings in fuel costs since I special ordered it, 137,000 miles ago. 58,000 miles in Europe, riping down the autobahn, lapping the Ring, slalom events, drag racing, towing from race track to race track. The remainder miles coming from here in the US, countless trips from DC to FL, NC and GA and now to TX. Towing from DC to TX weighing in on a CAT scale at 10,280, 2300 miles and averaging 18mpg. No gas 3.7KJ can even remotely claim that type of numbers. No math there, thats what the eco mode is for on the Garmin GPS is for.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:48 PM   #80
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You should see his sources.
I should give you more credit as a Airline Pilot, but for some reason I can't. As a J8(Bombardier CRJ700/900) user, this should all be second nature to you. Most of the pilots I know drive diesels, one I know in FL has a Jeep just like mine. спасибо
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