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Old 02-25-2013, 09:14 PM   #41
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See I like posts like this ^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:59 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by whynotthinkwhynot View Post


Electric vehicles like the Tesla use a transmission because they use AC motors. DC motors are the ones used in trains that have 100% torque at 0 rpm. AC motors are more like IC engines, and build torque. It builds faster, but still must build.

Why not do DC? DC motors must have commutator rings, and must have brushes. Under heavy load, these will suffer loss of power due to heat. In the electric conversion world, they will tell you that DC motors will slow down going uphill. Also, to have regen braking you need DC to DC converters, but with AC no specialized electronics are required. DC motors also have rpm issues that AC motors don't have as a result of the brushes and commutator rings. Trains do it- yes, but train motors are monstrously oversized, and use transmissions.

AC motors don't require brushes, although those that have brushes, and an electromagnet core have much better low rpm torque numbers making them suitable replacements for DC motors. A hybrid motor was developed along this line by Swiss company Brusa. I don't know how this one works, but since it's listed as an AC motor, I would think it would be a combination squirrel cage (electromagnet) and permanent magnet motor with some sort of centrifugal switch and mechanical arm that disengages the brushes at 4k rpm or so. That one would be able to do it without a transmission, and is advertised as such. Still- it's large, so one for a set of 2 wheels would probably work.

If you hadn't guessed, brushes are something you probably want to avoid in your electric car motor. This is a part that will suffer reduced efficiency when hot, and will wear out eventually. It will also wear out the point where it makes contact, so these parts will have to be accessible for replacement. The best idea, is to forgo brushes entirely, use a permanent magnet AC motor + gear reduction, and oversize it for the vehicle's weight. That's the Tesla formula.

Now, I'd think someone could make a Tesla-like vehicle using a Brusa motor and a custom battery- or our previous discussed power-plant. You could probably also do a good deal with squirrel cage motors even though those would need to have brush replacement factored into the equation. I'll bet that's what Mercedes did with 4 motors on their electric SLS. Wheels don't have to turn many rpm to make mph- especially 30" overall diameter wheel/tire combos. 6.14x15=92.1" per rev, 5280x12=63360 /92.1=688 rpm for 60 mph.

Well hell- that works right? Sure it does, and it's been done, but only with what's listed above, and that's why it's not been produced. True enough, even a single drive gear needs to be replaced at some point, and so that point can be made as well- however brushes will need to be replaced more often. Kudos to ya, I'd certainly like to see someone use a squirrel cage AC motor driving 2 wheels with no reduction powered by a 2 cyl, 2 stroke diesel, and a generator. I'm not quite sure which is heavier though the generator + engine + fuel or the batteries. You'd need a hefty generator.
Here's something to get those gears turning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES44AC#ES44AC
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:43 AM   #43
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See I like posts like this ^^^^^^^^^^^
Most of the time people say "please for God's sake stop typing!!!"

I went through this route of thinking a long while back when I was trying to see if it was cost effective for me to build my own electric car. Now I know it's not really. I went through everything- from VW bugs to pickups to figure out which would be best- and cost effective. Unfortunately for the "eco-modder" there isn't such a critter.

Motors like that Brusa I showed earlier are $8-15k, and a battery pack just to get me reliably (150%) back and forth from work is a double that. Now we're nearly in $20k range, and there's no performance to it. For that much there are used Nissan Leafs around for the all-electric because Nissan is having battery problems especially in hot climates. Eventually they will figure that out, or the aftermarket battery suppliers will figure that out. The only bummer of the Leaf is the weak ass charging system.

My point is that it's just not financially sound at the moment, and it would be worse with homebuilt hybrid using a diesel engine. You'd be better off trying to figure out how to incorporate gas hybrid engine controls onto a diesel using a used 1st gen Prius. I like the ideas, but I can't get it worked up.

I'd also like to note that if you read between the lines on the VW article- they started working on diesel electric hybrid power trains just after the big 3 dropped out of PNGV. I swear the older I get, the more I learn, the more I realize that Ralph isn't so dumb- they can build it, they just won't.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:52 AM   #44
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Actually, the reason railroads are enamored with AC traction is the ability to get heavier loads moving from a standstill and particularly on a grade. They don't spool up to high speeds as well as DC.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:23 PM   #45
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See this is what forums are for, transfering of information. WOOHOO!

Anyhow. Not being familiar with large AC/DC motors, can you not build a large brushless motor? I look a lot at the model RC world for electric technology R/D.

When I used to live in Germany I was near the GM R/D electric powertrain site and woud see odd things driving around. Normal bodied cars with odd tire sizes and different setups.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:46 PM   #46
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They do build large brushless motors, and generators- steam turbines turn 10-14k rpm. More later maybe, we're way off topic.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:02 PM   #47
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Actually, the reason railroads are enamored with AC traction is the ability to get heavier loads moving from a standstill and particularly on a grade. They don't spool up to high speeds as well as DC.
You've got that backwards. DC motors are slower, but have 100% torque at 0 rpm. AC motors, depending on design, can spin as fast as the bearings can handle, but must build torque. DC motors are held back from high speeds by design, but trains still use DC motors because of their high torque capabilities. DC generators are no longer used, and have been replaced by alternators because of the design differences that allow higher voltage output and fewer replaceable parts.

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...Originally, the traction motors and generator were DC machines. Following the development of high-capacity silicon rectifiers in the 1960s, the DC generator was replaced by an alternator using a diode bridge to convert its output to DC. This advance greatly improved locomotive reliability and decreased generator maintenance costs by elimination of the commutator and brushes in the generator. Elimination of the brushes and commutator, in turn, disposed of the possibility of a particularly destructive type of event referred to as a flashover, which could result in immediate generator failure and, in some cases, start an engine room fire.
Y'all do realize when I mean high speeds, I mean that low speeds are like 4-5k rpm, and high speeds are like 10-15k+ rpm. Most of the motors I work with (my job as an industrial electrician) are low rpm squirrel cage AC motors designed to make high hp at low rpm at certain voltage. With higher voltage, the motor would produce more. Think of voltage as gas. In an electric car, the motor controller controls the output voltage. Hp is torque over time, in this case rpm, so lower spinning motors have much more windings to produce the same power at low rpm. High rpm motors aren't as big for a given hp- and then it depends on the rated rpm. A motor that produces 100 hp at 3k rpm is more powerful than one that produces 100 hp at 5k rpm. Motors are also rated for maximum voltage, so you must be careful when checking out motors. Most of your low cost AC motors are max 200v whereas more high end motors are 400v or higher. More power means you need more power, so with higher voltages comes larger battery packs to hold the juice.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:09 PM   #48
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I incorrectly wrote earlier that hybrid cars used generators. They most definitely use large alternators to make power- most likely 400hz not the 60hz power grid frequency. This reduces the size of the alternator for a given output at a certain voltage and frequency. You typically find high frequency alternators in airplanes and ships. Of course, AC power can be produced at any frequency. If Tesla's lab hadn't burned down, or been burned down- who knows what we'd have today. I certainly know we'd know more about what the pyramids in Egypt really did if he'd have been allowed to build his static generator to power the world without wires. We'd already be driving electric cars, and not have to worry about charging.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:22 PM   #49
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it maybe off topic but i think it adds to it. Big winding low rpm's ftw.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:44 PM   #50
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Exclamation Helping reduce the off-topic chat

Whynot, for those of us who have interest in Locomotives and other diesel-electric vehicles, I've created a new thread so we aren't off-topic hi-jacking this one:

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=310293

Let's have fun over there!

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