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Old 06-09-2014, 07:27 AM   #1
gregvm
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2003 zx5 2.3 no cooling fans or a/c

So now I have a no engine cooling fans situation, as well with A/c compressor clutch not engaging when a/c is on.
I was trying to get the A/c working by charging it cause it was low. Compressor short cycled and cooling fans came on....then.....after the charge, a/c clutch wont engage and cooling fans wont run (either of them).
NO DTC's

Any ideas? Too coincidental that the clutch AND the fans quit working the same time.....

Thanks
Greg


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Old 06-10-2014, 04:43 AM   #2
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TTT
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Old 06-10-2014, 04:26 PM   #3
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Hi. Start with a good inspection of wiring in the area of fans, fans resistor pack, battery and chassis grounds inside engine bay. Do you have a multimeter or power-probe? I would troubleshoot the fans first. Fans should run in low speed once car gets normal hot. Read these two threads ->
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272143
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232451

Use FF search box using key words-> cooling fans. Lots of info and help here in old threads. Come back and let us know what you have done so far and others will help you.
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Old 06-18-2014, 05:01 PM   #4
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Update:
Jumped the "load side" of low speed fan relay....fans run at low speed.
Ditto for the high speed fan relay...fans run at high speed.

Replaced Cyl head temp sensor....no change, fans won't kick on after heatup.

There never seems to be a ground signal coming from the PCM to the 2 relays to turn them on(either from cht sensor telling it to, or turning the A/C on inside the car). The positive side is energized when key is on. Goes away when key off.....The A/c clutch won't energize either when a/c switch is on.

I'm starting to think the PCM is bad.

Ideas?
Thanks
Greg
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:41 PM   #5
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Don't............a MAJOR mistake. Extremely rare for that to happen and your symptoms do not say it. You're getting caught up a common loop of insane conventional wisdom there. Or, I don't understand it, so I blame the most misunderstood part there.

Just because temp needle in the middle does not mean fans necessarily come on and same with a/c on, even though everyone thinks so. The a/c and fans are closely linked in PCM software and you may only have a/c issues. Mine ('02) the fans may not come on for up to ten minutes with needle at the middle. With a/c on, they come on sometimes but do not stay on all the time. We'll say most of it. I have LEDs hooked up to low and high fan as well as a/c clutch, no way is everything off or on like most think there. The PCM knows what it wants and often not what you think. Have a '00 model as well and equipped same way, you can see the slight differences in what Ford changes up in software year to year there. They are trying to use fan less and less without affecting engine performance, the fans coming on affects idle and people complain about all the motor switching speeds up and down.

If a/c compressor was short-cycling before you did the work and not after, I'd look at what happened there in the work, you may have a leak of some sort as well. If you have leak, the added refrigerant would bump clutch into working then dead as soon as it all leaks out again. Fans won't work because PCM senses no a/c working. You must have at least enough refrigerant in the system to bump up to 25 psi or the a/c will not come on, designed in to prevent compressor damage.

Drive the car on a long drive. If the needle never overheats to go up then fans are obviously working at some point. If it had no fans you would overheat after a while.

Low fans come on at around 220-225 degrees and normal, problem is, the needle will be dead in the middle at 180 or so and stays that way through 230 or so. In short, you absolutely cannot use the needle to determine when the fans should be on. I often don't see them come on at all or maybe 15 minutes after doing work on car where I start it up to warm it to temp and needle hits the middle.

Most who think fans not working have simply not waited long enough, in winter they will NEVER come on at idle even though working perfectly.
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:15 PM   #6
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I guess I should have been a little more detailed in the OP


The engine has overheated twice to the point of boiling, both while stuck in traffic jams, and it threw a DTC of cylinder head overheat.
That's when I started diagnosing the fan system.
If you're trying to tell me that the fans WON'T come on(either speed) if there is a refrigerant leak or other A/C issue, than that is just plain pi** poor engineering.

I will look at the a/c though

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Old 06-18-2014, 10:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregvm View Post
Compressor short cycled and cooling fans came on....then.....after the charge, a/c clutch wont engage and cooling fans wont run (either of them).
Maybe your "charge" added too much refrigerant (or drained it) and "set" the duel level hi/low switch, and this is preventing the AC clutch engagement. I am not sure where that switch is but guessing it is in the area of the low side service valve (inside passenger side wheel well). You should consider draining out a little bit of refrigerant... or if you have a wire diagram you could disconnect the hi/low switch connector and "spoof it" using some spare wire, fooling the system to think that it is not hi or low. At a minimum, find the hi/low switch and make sure the connector and wires there are intact. Do you have or can you get a "gauge set" for hi/low side pressure measurement?

Yeah, do not worry about the PCM yet.

Lemme think about the cooling fan problem again, later. Sounds like you "jumper" tested the low and high speed fans system and wiring OK... but that test did not rule out the relays or the "control side" ground wiring (PCM control). Later.
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Old 06-19-2014, 02:32 AM   #8
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'If you're trying to tell me that the fans WON'T come on(either speed) if there is a refrigerant leak or other A/C issue, than that is just plain pi** poor engineering.'

No I only meantt that a/c turned on does not auto turn them on instantly in some cases. The fans WILL come on with a/c off but only at 220+ degrees, that is a good while after the needle is in the middle.

If you jumped to fan test by yanking relay then relay could be bad, they can work fine then stop and then go right back to working again.

The two fan relays and at least one relay involved with a/c get their common coil power from another called the 'power hold' relay. If bad you will get no relay coil power to power up the fan relays or that a/c one. Could be an issue there as well.
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Old 06-19-2014, 03:53 AM   #9
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The relays....
You say the positive side is energized. Are you referring yo the coil circuit in the relay, or the high amperage circuit that the relay is supposed to switch?

The coil side is hot with the key, and the PCM switches the ground to energize the coil to make the relay.

If that ground is not getting made at the relays, I would check the harness between there and the pcm. I would do some more troubleshooting with the multimeter before dropping $250 or so on a new PCM.
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Old 06-19-2014, 06:30 AM   #10
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I've got positive voltage on the coil energize with key on, which means power hold relay is working.

Never get a ground signal from pcm for the other side of coil energize.

I haven't tested the relays, but if it never is getting a signal, that's a moot point.

I will try to diagnose the harness from the pcm to the relay. I don't have a pin-out for the plug though....

UGH!!

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