Dry Sump worth it?

[amc49]

There's more than enough oil throwing around in there to lube cylinder walls, the oil rings are working their butts off trying to keep it low as it is. Entire motor lower end interior is pretty much oil fogged at higher rpm.

The stock aluminum zetec mid section is an attempt at a windage tray, although good ones are semisolid (screened usually) rather than solid. Solid tray simply bounces off thrown off oil back into the rotating mass again. Good windage pans have a kickout on one side to catch, strip away, and hold oil to allow it to flow down into pan lower. Trays help direct oil to the kickout. Scraper is on that side too. Using a scraper can often reduce the amount of small metal bits or flakes from normal running that get stuck in lower piston skirts.

[mikebontoft]

I like this thread because I don't know much about the different sumps and those other components like scrapers etc.

[Magus2727]

Can scrapers be installed into a windage tray by the end user? Or do you have to buy the tray with the scrapers already installed? Also do you have to worry about the Teflon worn off?

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Ford_SPI_Zetec.html

looks like it installs on the mains?

or do you want one that's on the windage tray?

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/s....php?p=1741070

[1turbofocus]

Scrapers would be a total waste of time , they would do nothing for you at all , the stock middle pan is one of the best stock windage pans that I have seen in a long time and it works very very well , I would keep my money

Tom

[Magus2727]

Would even just the Steel "scrapers" that cost about $100 be a waste? I have made cut outs for the ARP studs so the tray has been modified a little in that regards.

So for a DD and weekend street car would you even worry about the stock oil system?

Would you add in the Accusump? A 2 Quart would be ideal? or is that still even over kill?

[amc49]

You can make your own scraper, I used to out of flat 1/16" sheet metal. Trapped it between oil pan and block on old school stuff, not hard to seal. The sealing surface on these zetecs could be problematic however (o-ring). Scraper does no good without receiver area for what you are scraping off.

Teflon coating is splitting atoms, much more important to put scraper edges within 1/8" of rotating parts meaning of course you pretty much have to custom fit it to your parts yourself. Every single one. Time intensive and exactly why he doesn't want to do it. Lotta work.

A 'windage' tray is kinda useless without the scraper, they work together, even more so if the tray is solid. Solid trays simply keep the windage trapped around the crank. That does nothing. Look at really good windage trays out there and see how many are all solid material. Most have some sort of screening to strip away the oil roping around the crank while not letting it come back up into the rotating mass.

Just like working on motor itself, the whole thing works together if looking for optimum result. Scraper, proper windage tray both screened and directional cutouts, pan kickout or relief room on pass side of motor (with even a custom trap wall to slow down air to allow dripdown on pan wall). We felt it was worth about 1/2 the power a dry sump added if the oil pan could be deep enough to help too.

Getting deep here in this tech is just like dry sumping, you are crossing reliability barriers. The stock trays on most motors are solid to keep them bottom dollar reliable for long periods of time. You get some of the power but not all that can be got. Obviously a screened part and scrapers potentially not as reliable for very long times, but they will make more power.

Not saying stock doesn't work or even work well, just not as good as a seriously thought out part as is usually the case in all things motor. Once you start zeroing in on pure unadulterated power you must give up things, reliability to an extent is one of them. If you're not racing for a living then simpler and stock is usually better.

Easy to see why stock pump goes to crap, the outside ring is unsupported it looks like across a pretty good chunk of its' OD on one side and two places. Any stackup looseness from normal clearances could allow center and outside rotors to get out of parallel with each other to chatter, that made worse by the center rotor simply slipping over crank snout, another clearance to add even more looseness. Pumps I earlier referred to as going much higher rpm always have a pressed in driveshaft to at least reduce looseness by one clearance or one third. They also fully support the outer ring all the way around both sides to hold the ring in dead parallel to the center. Full support on outer ring and inner too pretty much guarantees the pump cannot get up on the tip outside corners hard to chatter and break. Oil intaking and outputting will come in directly from the side instead of around the sides of the outer ring like this motor does.

Don't care too much for the flat cover over pump either, could suck air slightly at higher rpm even with the little pressure fed groove molded in there. I've seen that before on other motors. Also don't care for bypass output going back into intake path to disturb smooth flow into intake of pump. That alone at high rpm is asking for trouble to me. A good hi-perf pump bypasses outside and simply has bigger intake tube to make up for the supposed 'lost' volume.

[1turbofocus]

Originally Posted by Magus2727

Would even just the Steel "scrapers" that cost about $100 be a waste? I have made cut outs for the ARP studs so the tray has been modified a little in that regards.

So for a DD and weekend street car would you even worry about the stock oil system?

Would you add in the Accusump? A 2 Quart would be ideal? or is that still even over kill?

Yes even the 100.00 scraper would be a total waste of time and money and no one can prove otherwise , they can give there opinions on what works on OTHER engine but were talking about the Focus engine here

No I wouldnt worry about the stock oiling system , keep it under 7400 and go have fun , chances are you will never have an oiling system failure

Accusumps are great I like them a lot for cold starts and cornering , are you realy going to be pulling a lot og "G" cornering

I have hundreds of miles on my SVT ar VIR making over 300HP and on the all stock engine , no issues

Tom

[Magus2727]

I would think/hope that I will be able to pull lots of G's cornering. Want to do as many open track days as possible when I have my car and plan to have some high grip tires. I am planing doing a full suspension overhaul. (keeping springs and shocks) but new control arms (tubular & adjustable), bushings, and the likes. So I hope to be able to pull 1G on the skid pad... unheard of for the focus?

But at this point I think I am designing over than what I will actually use it for. It is just easier to add any of this stuff now while I have the engine still apart than it would be if I chose to add it back in later.

Well I now need to save up for the oil pump. Some brake downs with my DD required me to pull funds from that. so if C-F-M has the oil pump when I am ready to by I will get their extra umph. otherwise its the stock pump and will forget the oil pump.

For the accusump I do plan on having a turbo, and the above track days. and it gets cold here in Utah. So it seems like it would be a good system to have all around to improve the life of the motor. 20-25 psi valve for the focus? Since this can be added after the whole build and really at any point i am not going to worry about it now. But I can make it a dual purpose both as a pre-oiler, pressure variation compensation, and as a turbo spin down oiler. I can use a micro-controller and the pressure gauge (or just a basic timer) so if I get a large enough assusump i have oil for start up and dump say 1/2 of the oil reserve at shut off to provide oil lubrication to the turbo.

[cody.carr]

Somewhat off topic. but do you know the size of the windage tray bolts?

[amc49]

Like a Focus engine could ever be any different from all the hundred others, LOL. You see of course Ford in their infinite wisdom used a bit of the tech by using the windage section to begin with. Meaning THEY seem to think the ideas work even on Focus motors. It would be utterly stupid to use supposed 'energy saving' 5W-20 oil and then not try to control some oil throwing around in the crankcase, it's about gas mileage too.

He is absolutely right on the rest of it gentlemen, those tricks are for the super throwdown last nickel in it guy with 'trickitis' who wants absolutely everything he can get and willing to suffer engine blowups to get it. On the outer edge nothing comes easy or without cost. If you drive on the street at all you are not that guy. Just thought I'd show how ridiculous it can get, believe me, it's worse than that.

While 1turbo and I have our days he seems to know very well what the easy power is versus the hard. Once you cross that line you are talking endless work for very little more result and much more potential breakage.

'go have fun'...........I like that. I think about all the expensive stuff we blew up trying to do certain extreme things. Wasn't no fun then. It's so much better to carry a car to maybe only 1/2 of what can be done to it to make good power but not the ultimate. You get so much more enjoyment time out of your work and result.