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Old 10-04-2012, 09:26 AM   #81
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Confirmation ... my 1st gear shudder is non-existant with the traction control disabled. When it is turned back on, 1st gear shudder returns. Verrrry interesting, I'm somewhat excited to find out where this all ends up.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:28 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan50 View Post
I thought traction control systems compared the rotational speed of the drive wheels, not torque, to identify slippage. It would be great if the TCS was the reason for our maladies but I can't quite get clear in my mind why it would be so. It makes sense for those who complain about odd behavior in a 90 degree turn (as drive wheel speeds would be different), but a straight-ahead start?

On the other hand, while my transmission behaves acceptably, to me it feels like the timing retards under low-speed acceleration, resulting in poor throttle response and a surging sensation. As traction control systems can use brakes, throttle and timing changes to deal with a spinning wheel, maybe this is really the cause. I'll give it a try later today.
Actually that's not how most traction control systems work. The reason is simple: if your car is on a solid patch of ice, all drivetrain-engaged wheels would spin at close to the same rate. If it were checking purely for the differential between the drive-wheels it wouldn't see much of a difference and thus wouldn't engage the TCS. Most traction control systems operate with a variety of factors.

Another possibility, however unlikely, is that when engaging the clutch from a stop it puts more power to one wheel than the other. The TCS would engage to fix the differential. Like I said, I highly doubt an issue like that would exist on a large scale without Ford taking notice or at least admitting the issue.



As for the rest, I turned TCS back on and it shuddered at the next stop. Turned it off and the shudder is once again gone (at least reasonably so, as I've said). With the TCS off it performs like every other dry dual-clutch transmission I've driven in the past...which means I would have to assume *THAT* is how the car should drive. Very little slippage, but just enough to maximize engine efficiency at takeoff. While driving I experience none of the issues I normally do (taking turns at slow speeds shuddered the engine like crazy and I've had no such issue with TCS disabled).

And of course this is all speculative assumption, beyond the physical change in operation. Why it does it? I couldn't possibly say for sure. I can give my opinion, which is probably not too far from the truth, but I can't say for sure it's the 100% truth as to what is happening. That's for Ford to determine. Until then, I'll keep presenting my evidence and let them keep shooting themselves in the foot by lying to me
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:17 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan50 View Post
I thought traction control systems compared the rotational speed of the drive wheels, not torque, to identify slippage.
This was true of TCS systems from years ago, they would only use the ABS wheel speed sensors and even "piggy back" off of the ABS controller to give you a rudimentary TCS system. Nowadays, especially with the advent of Drive-by-Wire throttles, they are much more sophisticated, and use torque parameters, and even vehicle "pitch and yaw" in some cases. My current track bike, an 08 Kawasaki ZX10R Ninja has a TCS system (Kawi calls it "KIMS", or Kawasaki Ignition Management System), and it does not employ ABS or any wheel speed sensors at all, but, rather torque outputs and engine speed alone, and it works rather well (as I found out when on slippery surfaces, LOL). My point is, modern TCS is a LOT deeper involved than just wheel speed inputs.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:34 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by pozi240 View Post
This was true of TCS systems from years ago, they would only use the ABS wheel speed sensors and even "piggy back" off of the ABS controller to give you a rudimentary TCS system. Nowadays, especially with the advent of Drive-by-Wire throttles, they are much more sophisticated, and use torque parameters, and even vehicle "pitch and yaw" in some cases. My current track bike, an 08 Kawasaki ZX10R Ninja has a TCS system (Kawi calls it "KIMS", or Kawasaki Ignition Management System), and it does not employ ABS or any wheel speed sensors at all, but, rather torque outputs and engine speed alone, and it works rather well (as I found out when on slippery surfaces, LOL). My point is, modern TCS is a LOT deeper involved than just wheel speed inputs.
Wow! No one tells me anything. You learn something new every day...
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:43 AM   #85
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Occasionally my car has the first gear shudder when accelerating from a complete stop. I have been running with my TCS off since yesterday (after reading this thread) and have had zero shudders. I did a lot of stop and go running my daughters around so I would say it definitely is making a difference. My car is a March 2011 build with 35,000 miles.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:04 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by poole34 View Post
Occasionally my car has the first gear shudder when accelerating from a complete stop. I have been running with my TCS off since yesterday (after reading this thread) and have had zero shudders. I did a lot of stop and go running my daughters around so I would say it definitely is making a difference. My car is a March 2011 build with 35,000 miles.
You definately should get your dealer to check out your DCT as per TSB 11-12-13, have a read of my findings today from my dealer:
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/s...=1#post4387008
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:09 PM   #87
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I can't wait to try this on my way home from work today. I will get the shudder after driving 25 miles on the PA Turnpike and get off at the Bensalem exit where we cattle-chute down from 10 lanes to 1. When I'm maneuvering into the lane and stopping and starting is when I ALWAYS get the shuddering.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:21 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pozi240 View Post
You definately should get your dealer to check out your DCT as per TSB 11-12-13, have a read of my findings today from my dealer:
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/s...=1#post4387008
Thanks for the information. I will have to get the dealer to check it out. I know some have been able to see oil leaking from there transmission. Could you physically see any oil leakage on your car? I do all my own maintenance but I have not seen any oil. Also did you ever find a copy of the TSB?
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:23 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pozi240 View Post
You definately should get your dealer to check out your DCT as per TSB 11-12-13, have a read of my findings today from my dealer:
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/s...=1#post4387008
Your linked post is very informative and makes sense. I have a later build date (5/7/12) and do not have any DCT problems and turning off TCS did nothing for me, but those that have an earlier build date are much more likely to have bad seals and if the oil gets on the clutch pack all bets are off as far as drive-ability. TCS may induce or worsen the shudder problem on a car with contaminated clutch packs by adding another variable in the control loop that isn't "tuned" to handle the unexpected torque/speed response between the input and output of the transmission.

What I'd like to see is a few more of you with the problem bring your car in to have the seals and clutch packs checked and if a significant percentage of you with the shudder issue wind up having contaminated clutch packs that would put to bed the issue and put the onus on Ford to make good on this to ALL there customers with the problem.

It may well be the case that just about all these issues can be traced to bad seals and contaminated clutch packs.


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Old 10-04-2012, 12:30 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by poole34 View Post
Thanks for the information. I will have to get the dealer to check it out. I know some have been able to see oil leaking from there transmission. Could you physically see any oil leakage on your car? I do all my own maintenance but I have not seen any oil. Also did you ever find a copy of the TSB?
No, I didn't see any oil, BUT, I have a maintenance pkg, so, the dealer does it all..., I will say my transimission did have some oil "oozing" down the outside (the dealer showed it to me today) and it had been there for some time.....
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