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Old 11-04-2013, 10:56 PM   #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth View Post
So how is air 'sucked'? Magnetism? Some sort of magic pull?
The only way air moves* is from a high pressure area to a low pressure area in any part of the combustion process. It may gain momentum from doing that, and continue beyond due to inertia and a mass moving tends to stay moving.. But the only thing moving air is pressure. Like I wrote, no such thing in reality as 'suck'. It is a misnomer we use out of ignorance.

Air may also move if it is pushed, like by a fan.. or due to heat changing it's local density.. Or it may seem to move in relation to the object moving through it.. Like a jet engine. (one of the big counts for understanding how important turbulence can be is seeing a jet engine fail just because of a bit of turbulence in front of it. See "Top Gun" for a good example of a jet failing due to turbulent wake)
Technically, SUCTION is the act or process of exerting a force upon a solid, liquid, or gaseous body by reason of reduced air pressure over part of its surface. - Merriam-Webster, definition 2a.

So it is low pressure that has been created by another motion or force.

Soooo Suction DOES exist. It's the movement of the piston downward during an intake stroke.
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:17 PM   #602
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Technically, SUCTION is the act or process of exerting a force upon a solid, liquid, or gaseous body by reason of reduced air pressure over part of its surface. - Merriam-Webster, definition 2a.

So it is low pressure that has been created by another motion or force.

Soooo Suction DOES exist. It's the movement of the piston downward during an intake stroke.
.........thank you.
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Old 11-05-2013, 12:18 AM   #603
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Also, I believe the pressure inside the engine bay and Intake box is far less than the air, albeit stagnant, In the front of the car, this creating the intake effect, especially from the ducting that you seem to disagree with ever so much.
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:18 AM   #604
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If the intake is open inside the engine bay then yes the inside of the engine bay may have lower pressure than the air outside.
If the intake is located outside the engine bay then IMO the engine bay would have slightly higher air pressure than the air outside the car if the radiator fan was on.. or the car is moving foward, forcing the static atmosphere into the front of the car.
This would be very small, as the openings around the hood, and the underside allow the air to push out easily.

Dynamically the engine compartment could also have lower pressure at speed IF some aerodynamic design of the car created a low pressure area just under and behind the engine bay.
Taking the air dam off the windshield end of the hood may also allow a low pressure area right at that point to create a low pressure inside the engine bay. If the car shape creates such a low pressure area.
(Sometime one can 'see' this sort of area when it rains.. Some cars no rain hits the lower windshield at speed from the air flow being diverted up by the car shape, at speed. Same with bugs.. they seem to 'get pushed up' out of the way, more so on some cars than others, from the flow of air over the body.)

As for the intake box, certainly the pressure is well below atmospheric when the car is running. That is why air flows into it. From high pressure to low.

And I have zero problems with ducting. Ducts are great. if the are not having to deal with a lot of turbulence. Which, when just sticking it on with guesswork, is not a known thing.
If your duct has no turbulence at any speed then it will work well. If it does encounter turbulence from air streaming around the body or angles of duct to direction of air movement. (sort of like what a whistle does) Then the duct may not be able to perform up to what is expected. do to the turbulence interfering with airflow. And there is no way to know without doing some sort of tests.

Now some posting here (not you) make big complaints about so called 'seat of the pants' or butt dyno' claims. Which a person saying "My intake works well" is. just a claim, a guess, a belief. No real numbers are checked. So you 'feel' your device works better than stock. I believe you. But I am also just pointing out the problems.

Again You think I am attacking you or your air flow design. Not at all. What I am doing is saying it is a haphazard affair. Which may work, or may not.
The only way to SHOW it works is numbers from a test. Otherwise it is butt dyno. Even my hoping the ST inrake piece will help in some little way is ony guesswork. No problem for me with that. I am willing to accept the risk vs spending $$$ to test it professionally.

And finally believing in 'suction' as a force is like believing in the tooth fairy. If you want to call lower air pressure. or lower water pressure as suction, you can, it is in the dictionary. But suction is not a force in physics.

Added later: a thought. When folks do a static dyno test.. they use a huge fan to blow air into the front of the car. Now if that car has an external intake, it may not perform as well as in a real drive... As the fan is creating huge turbulence in the are moving toward the front of the car. VS in real life the air is very still in comparison, and the car rams into it at speed. The air in the real world is far less turbulent that from any fan.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:05 AM   #605
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And finally believing in 'suction' as a force is like believing in the tooth fairy. If you want to call lower air pressure. or lower water pressure as suction, you can, it is in the dictionary. But suction is not a force in physics.
True, but pressure gradients exist in physics. Creating an area of low pressure (lower than surrounding pressure) will cause the high pressure force to move air in the direction of that lower pressure, due to the gradient.

"Suction" is the creation of a low pressure area (vacuum), by mechanical means or otherwise. The pressure gradient force created by those means would be the force that moves air from high to low pressure.

You are correct that "suction" is not a force. However, that does not mean that "suction" does not exist.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:31 AM   #606
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Thank you ^
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Old 11-05-2013, 12:39 PM   #607
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True, but pressure gradients exist in physics. Creating an area of low pressure (lower than surrounding pressure) will cause the high pressure force to move air in the direction of that lower pressure, due to the gradient.

"Suction" is the creation of a low pressure area (vacuum), by mechanical means or otherwise. The pressure gradient force created by those means would be the force that moves air from high to low pressure.

You are correct that "suction" is not a force. However, that does not mean that "suction" does not exist.
Yes. IMO the problem is when folks think suction IS a force. and mistakenly do things working on that assumption. If they realized the actual events (as you describe) then they might make better decisions.
I have no idea why some folks have a problem with my comments on this. Like I am insulting their favorite superhero or something.

I also realize the confusion in my saying suction does not exist. In ordinary life it seems to be there for certain. But in trying to use it as a building block, it should be realized how stuff really works. And in that case.. Suction is a fantasy construct. Now once you define suction as the actual events which are occuring, and understand that nothing is 'pulling the air in' but rather the high pressure area is moving to the area of low pressure.. well then no problem..
But too many seem to think suction is a force attracting the air sort of like some attractive power. Which it is emphatically not.
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:09 PM   #608
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Y

I also realize the confusion in my saying suction does not exist. In ordinary life it seems to be there for certain. But in trying to use it as a building block, it should be realized how stuff really works. And in that case.. Suction is a fantasy construct. Now once you define suction as the actual events which are occuring, and understand that nothing is 'pulling the air in' but rather the high pressure area is moving to the area of low pressure.. well then no problem..
But too many seem to think suction is a force attracting the air sort of like some attractive power. Which it is emphatically not.
"Suction is a fantasy construct"
There is no fantasy about it , remove your air filter and hold your engine about 2000 rpm and hold your hand over the opening and see what happens , suction is real and with out it the engine wouldnt run

"and understand that nothing is 'pulling the air in' but "

The PISTONS when the valves open are pulling the air in and creating the suction / vacuum

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Old 11-05-2013, 03:40 PM   #609
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I give up.
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Old 11-05-2013, 03:43 PM   #610
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Quote:
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"suction is a fantasy construct"
there is no fantasy about it , remove your air filter and hold your engine about 2000 rpm and hold your hand over the opening and see what happens , suction is real and with out it the engine wouldnt run

"and understand that nothing is 'pulling the air in' but "

the pistons when the valves open are pulling the air in and creating the suction / vacuum

tom
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