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Old 09-12-2012, 05:32 PM   #51
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I like the idea of this thread. Thanks for cleaning up the forums (hopefully) Beta.
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyThIc3LiTe View Post
You can correct me if I am wrong however, but the Veloster and the Focus are the only ones with the DCTs, not sure if the Jetta can be had with the DSG; I believe it only has the Tiptronic sport mode in the regular autobox...
Here in Quebec the Jeta does have the DSG in the Diesel model. Don't know about the US model though.
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:07 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timthom62 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by oritpro View Post
Now this is what I am talking about! I vote we make that document a sticky.
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Originally Posted by Pendarus View Post
Should be required reading before you allowed to buy a Focus with the DCT. Also should be required before posting in this thread.
Thanks for posting this document and I would also ask it be made a sticky or part of a sticky.

There are a couple interesting things to take away from the document:

First, the "trailer hitching" thing is probably a big part of the problem and is largely a problem of expectation of the driver that is likely more familiar with a torque converter based auto.

Secondly, the document also makes mention of gear whine that has been "... significantly reduced in later build vehicles ..." This second point reinforces a suspicion I've had that Ford "evolved" the assembly process for the transmission and that early build cars may have issues.

The poll I started a month and a half ago that looked into the difference in problems with the build date of the car suggested that most of the problem cars, where owners are still experiencing problems, were built in the first 6 months. I am concerned that Ford would argue that these early build cars, which there own document suggests may have more issues, are not to be worked on because of those issues -- very troubling...


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Old 09-12-2012, 06:10 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raptor1956 View Post
Thanks for posting this document and I would also ask it be made a sticky or part of a sticky.

There are a couple interesting things to take away from the document:

First, the "trailer hitching" thing is probably a big part of the problem and is largely a problem of expectation of the driver that is likely more familiar with a torque converter based auto.

Secondly, the document also makes mention of gear whine that has been "... significantly reduced in later build vehicles ..." This second point reinforces a suspicion I've had that Ford "evolved" the assembly process for the transmission and that early build cars may have issues.

The poll I started a month and a half ago that looked into the difference in problems with the build date of the car suggested that most of the problem cars, where owners are still experiencing problems, were built in the first 6 months. I am concerned that Ford would argue that these early build cars, which there own document suggests may have more issues, are not to be worked on because of those issues -- very troubling...


Brian
I have to wonder if it was referring to the early build units that were publicly sold, or potentially more liklely to the prototype units that they were initially testing before the car ever went on sale. It depends on when these notes were first written I suppose.
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:19 PM   #55
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I really wish Ford had come up with some better term for what they called the "trailer hitching feel". I'd wager that the majority of people will not have actually towed a trailer and would have a hard time relating that inertia/momentum loop to the jerk/shudder that they're experiencing.
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:26 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by suss6052 View Post
I have to wonder if it was referring to the early build units that were publicly sold, or potentially more liklely to the prototype units that they were initially testing before the car ever went on sale. It depends on when these notes were first written I suppose.
Possibly, but highly doubtful, given that Ford has issued these documents for "customer consumption". If they didn't think any customers got these "early builds" they are referring to, then why would they even leave that verbage in the document? They are basically readily admitting (in not so may words) that the early build cars had some "issues" (whatever extent that may be, will most likely will never know), and they have "improved" upon it since. All but the most "obtuse" customers will pick up on that I would imagine.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:42 PM   #57
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That is your opinion and I respect that. This CVT I had was on a 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander V6 with 220HP, and quite frankly I never experienced ANY quirkyness or strange behavior from this CVT in 4 years of ownership. Did the Cabot trail twice, back and forth and racked 75000Km on it and it was smooth as silk and rocketed off a red light (on 4x4 lock) like a bomb.

You see, in my position, I could exaclty say the same thing about my DCT. This DCT type of transmission is by far, in my point of view, the worst piece of modern engineering I have ever used. But that's probably because mine is faulty and my dealer refuses to admit it.

All I'm saying is that ''my'' DCT is bad. I'm not saying that ALL DCT's are bad. Also, no kind of transmission will ever seperate me from my testies, ever. To each is own.
Very fair, my opinion was marred because it was a rental car right after an accident and I was miserable to begin with so any redeeming qualities of the car were ignored because I was so pissed off about the situation.

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Here in Quebec the Jeta does have the DSG in the Diesel model. Don't know about the US model though.
Hmm, interesting. I stand corrected then, I only considered the gas models.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:49 PM   #58
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Very fair, my opinion was marred because it was a rental car right after an accident and I was miserable to begin with so any redeeming qualities of the car were ignored because I was so pissed off about the situation.
Lol, I was once in a similar situation, I could have drove a supercar but I was so pissed that I would have not appreciate any of the car's qualities.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:13 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by suss6052 View Post
That sounds like a terrible idea, why not just replace it with a 6F35 instead if you're going to mate an awful and inefficient torque converter to the car vs a clean dry dual clutch setup.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are torque converters much less efficient than dry DCMs? Even if that may be true in principle, I hardly think the Focus's DCM mileage performance is superior enough that we could thumb our noses at traditional automatics. Perhaps future DCMs will mop the floor with ordinary autos, but right now the Focus holds its own but that's about it.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:28 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by gambit293 View Post
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are torque converters much less efficient than dry DCMs? Even if that may be true in principle, I hardly think the Focus's DCM mileage performance is superior enough that we could thumb our noses at traditional automatics. Perhaps future DCMs will mop the floor with ordinary autos, but right now the Focus holds its own but that's about it.
Yes an unlocked torque converter is still far less efficient than either a single clutch manual or a dual clutch automated manual, only through locking up can it even slightly come close but its still at least 5-10% less efficient due to the fact that you have to overcome the extra driveline losses of the fluid sloshing through the fluid coupling.

The Focus is at or near the top of the class in terms of performance yet the mileage is still way up there with the DCT vs the less powerful (and power hungry) torque converter autos in the Civic and others have combined with tall gearing can mask the sins of the torque converter at higher speeds, but an unlocked converter = lots of wasted energy.
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