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Old 05-06-2012, 08:57 PM   #171
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If that's the case, the stoich is probably 14.079, too.
Wouldn't 14.079 be stoich for E10?
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:13 PM   #172
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That is exactly what I am seeing. The PCM reports closed loop at WOT.
The 2012 Focus does have a wideband sensor.

That is my line of thinking....
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:36 PM   #173
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OK maybe I am off and I am sure I am Since I never really messed performance wise with injected engines. I have worked with carburated but that is a slightly different world. I have mainly just added intakes and exhaust but other than that never had performance oriented cars. Meaning like less than 140hp cars.

Anyways I know of a few people that when doing mods on the higher ende would change out their injectors to higher flowing. Like in the Scion world some guys with like xDs or first gen xBs would put in the tC injectors to add more fuel. If these cars are running lean with this bolt on mods wouldn't slapping a bigger injector (if one is available to cross reference) help with that issue.

Just a thought like maybe a fix/temp fix until tuning comes out.

Not trying to be ignorant just going based on things I have seen in the past.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:04 PM   #174
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If these cars are running lean with this bolt on mods wouldn't slapping a bigger injector (if one is available to cross reference) help with that issue.

It's not so easy with direct injection.

In any case, it hasn't been established that the fuel system is "maxed out".
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:19 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Kabigon View Post
That is exactly what I am seeing. The PCM reports closed loop at WOT.
The 2012 Focus does have a wideband sensor.
Yeah. The car will only be open loop upon start-up for a short period of time until the oxygen sensors are warm enough to start providing feedback, just as it has been in the past.

The only difference is that at WOT, the car will still rely on o2 sensor feedback, so the car never goes into open loop again, but "optimum power" or OP mode, instead.

That's all part of the new copperhead ECU's.

You can datalog commanded lambda, actual lambda and then even correction as well. You should see (lambse) as well.

Keep in mind, I keep saying sensorS with an s at the end because I deal with Mustangs all day long. The same will apply, only you won't have bank1 and bank2.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:31 PM   #176
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Wouldn't 14.079 be stoich for E10?
Yeah... in 2011, they started using that as the stoich value. The tough thing is that people still speak in terms of "air/fuel ratio" and not "lambda".

This is a tough concept to grasp. If you're running .850 lambda, for example... the "air/fuel ratio" changes for what gas you're running. So, .850 lambda is 12.44 air/fuel ratio with gasoline (14.64 stoich). .850 lambda is 11.96 air/fuel ratio with 10% ethanol (14.08 stoich). The stoich air/fuel is all that changes, but the ratio of .850:1 remains the same, with 1 being stoich.

Customers will always just hear the proper "air/fuel" ratio to run, or see the air/fuel ratio printout, and most widebands are still set up to display whatever lambda they read, multiplied by 14.64. So, for the foreseeable future, we're stuck talking in AFR instead of lambda.

Either way, it doesn't matter at the end of the day, because if they're unhappy with the air/fuel ratio, the lambda is too high. This means it's going to be too high, regardless of what stoich. If 13.2 is too lean, for example, that means that it still needs to be adjusted down to 12.8, let's say. The stoich should go from .9-ish down to .875-ish. Then, it doesn't matter if you use pure ethanol (which the stoich is 9:1), the .875 will still be okay, and air/fuel ratio would become 7.65.

End ramble.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Even if the ECU is seeing the actual A/F it is NOT able to change the A/F under WOT (open loop) conditions it can under closed loop conditions

I would use extreem caution modding this new engine with out tuning , My opinion is I would do NO modding till there is tuning

Tom
This isn't true. The AFR is able to be changed at WOT (closed loop). It will adjust to a point, as long as it's not insanely off.

There's still a huge need for tuning, I'm not devaluing that at all. As a matter of fact, if the MAF housing size is ANY bigger, you need a calibration. If you drop an intake in and the MAF size is bigger, but the air/fuel ratio is still okay - that's due to learning. It still doesn't mean the underlying MAF table isn't incorrect.

Keep in mind that these cars are no longer MAF transfer functions, but MAF frequency tables, like a GM. This needs to be adjusted to keep learning from having to take care of discrepancies.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:37 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by zx3matt View Post
I am not sure what strategy Ford is using with the wideband on the Focus, but I have seen a lot of dynos on exhaust and intake upgrades on 2011+ 5.0 Coyote Mustangs, and without any tuning, the Copperhead ECU in the Mustang is correcting its A/F with these mods consistent with the stock A/F throughout the rev range (a pretty darned perfect A/F for good power). Many shops attribute this to the use of the wideband o2 sensor.

Many newer stand alone fuel injection systems like FAST can run closed loop all the time (part throttle and WOT) with the use of a wideband sensor.
I can guaruntee that they wouldn't put a wideband sensor in the car and not use it. Coyote Mustangs still need tuning, even though the wideband may be adjusting for additional mods. That explanation is my post before this. However, you're absolutely right - there is correction going on with the widebands (or wideband in this case) and it does allow the car to have a little bit of "wiggle room" to mod without NEEDING a tune to hit targeted air/fuel ratio (which comes from the Desired Lambda at WOT table within the tune). Need a tune and should have a tune, is where it gets tricky.

The factory wideband sensors on these are extremely accurate, and we actually believe them as much as some of our lab equiptment. We've tested it back-to-back with Dynojet Wideband Commander, AFM1000, and UEGO's (junk). They're very accurate.

Your last paragraph is exactly right.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:47 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by ChrisRo View Post
Yeah... in 2011, they started using that as the stoich value. The tough thing is that people still speak in terms of "air/fuel ratio" and not "lambda".

This is a tough concept to grasp. If you're running .850 lambda, for example... the "air/fuel ratio" changes for what gas you're running. So, .850 lambda is 12.44 air/fuel ratio with gasoline (14.64 stoich). .850 lambda is 11.96 air/fuel ratio with 10% ethanol (14.08 stoich). The stoich air/fuel is all that changes, but the ratio of .850:1 remains the same, with 1 being stoich.

Customers will always just hear the proper "air/fuel" ratio to run, or see the air/fuel ratio printout, and most widebands are still set up to display whatever lambda they read, multiplied by 14.64. So, for the foreseeable future, we're stuck talking in AFR instead of lambda.

Either way, it doesn't matter at the end of the day, because if they're unhappy with the air/fuel ratio, the lambda is too high. This means it's going to be too high, regardless of what stoich. If 13.2 is too lean, for example, that means that it still needs to be adjusted down to 12.8, let's say. The stoich should go from .9-ish down to .875-ish. Then, it doesn't matter if you use pure ethanol (which the stoich is 9:1), the .875 will still be okay, and air/fuel ratio would become 7.65.

End ramble.
I assume this is in part for flex fuel. When you run say E85 for awhile then at half tank decide to go to 87 oct. Now your running E42.5 so O2s are basically measuring real world octane and adjusting the lambda to match?
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:55 PM   #180
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I assume this is in part for flex fuel. When you run say E85 for awhile then at half tank decide to go to 87 oct. Now your running E42.5 so O2s are basically measuring real world octane and adjusting the lambda to match?
The stoich itself is a set value in the PCM at 14.079, but the car itself won't actually know what fuel it has in the tank. Since ethanol is a regulated deal, it just makes sense to include that in at least US calibrations.

The only thing it knows is the quality of the fuel in terms of adaptive spark and knock sensors. If it's 87 octane, it's not going to be aggressive as if you fill with 93 octane. The knock sensor strategy is intelligent enough to add/subtract based on audible feedback.

It also will know the commanded and actual lambdas. So, the car just needs a proper lambda, and needs knock sensors that can add/remove timing based on fuel quality. In those terms, yes - it will know the fuel quality.

The proper lambda for E85 and the proper lambda for 100% gasoline, for a given car/mods, will be the same. If that lambda too lean or too rich for gasoline, it's going to be too lean or too rich for E85. The only difference is when you speak about it in terms of air/fuel ratio. So really, the car doesn't need to know what fuel is in it. Make sense?

Hope this helps!
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