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Old 04-04-2012, 03:49 PM   #31
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Altis, you're just digging yourself deeper and deeper. You keep repeating the same things that are incorrect. You also need a lesson on lighting patterns.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:15 PM   #32
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BetaDnB, could you by any chance link us to someplace that shows the lighting patterns of low beam and fog lights?
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BetaDnB View Post
Altis, you're just digging yourself deeper and deeper. You keep repeating the same things that are incorrect. You also need a lesson on lighting patterns.
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Which part is incorrect? Look at the links... fog lights are illegal to use in some countries/areas when the conditions don't warrant them. That is an indisputable fact.

This car was made for the entire world, not just NA.. so they decided to have the fog lights off by default when the car is started. Another fact.

That's the purpose of this thread, and I just shed light on why Ford chose to have those lights off by default.

The light from fog lights introduced to the road does not help the drive in any way at speeds that were discussed (rural, ~50 mph, or 80 feet/second). This is because the driver should absolutely not be focused on those first few feet of the road... but rather looking several seconds ahead. That is a fact, as well. It's taught in driver's education, because that is more safe than looking near at high speeds.

Fog lights add additional glare to oncoming drivers. More light towards them = more glare. Another point that cannot be disputed. Most fog lights tend to not be aimed down the way low beams do, so they appear to oncomers as the same if not more brightness. I'll take a long exposure later to show this. You also add more glare for yourself... another fact, because more light (not in the place you are trying to see) = more glare. That's why many people dim their dash lights in the dark roads.

Have you ever noticed that no emergency vehicles have these "safe" fog lights? Not police, fire trucks, or ambulance... not city buses, fleet vehicles, etc. If they're so beneficial, why don't any of them have them? (Hint: they have other bright lights, should they need to be seen)

So where's this hole I'm dug into? I'm not even saying not to use them. I'm simply pointing out that outside of poor visibility conditions, it is no safer than using you low and high beams properly.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:17 PM   #34
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BetaDnB, could you by any chance link us to someplace that shows the lighting patterns of low beam and fog lights?
Since they vary from car to car, I'll take some photos tonight showing various angles and patterns.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:16 PM   #35
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BetaDnB, could you by any chance link us to someplace that shows the lighting patterns of low beam and fog lights?
This should suffice. It's the best I could find.



An OEM fog light beam may/may not extend as far as this illustration for what's being sold on the website that the image is from, but that doesn't matter. It's clearly a wider beam that doesn't project as far because of the width. Which means it clearly cannot appear as bright watt for watt using the exact same bulb unless you're looking directly at the light source. Then it can only appear as bright.

For the fog lights to be truly effective for what they were designed for I don't understand why the put white lights in at the factory. Yellow bulbs are the only way to go as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:36 PM   #36
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+1 that yellow is both more effective for fog, and reduces glare.

Would hate to be coming at that car with the "KC Long Range" lights on... looks like an aircraft landing light!
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:48 PM   #37
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Altis = ignorant to automotive lighting systems .... fact! LOL , just because you say its an indisputable fact, and keep repeating it (for emphasis) based on your own opinions or findings, doesn't make it so. Wow..... you really are drinking the good "kool aid" up there in our nations capital, aren't you? You are missing the whole point on what fog lights actually do, and instead are focusing in on what you perceive people use fog lights for, and are ignoring what benefit they actually provide. Very narrow minded view and is not helpful to any insightful conversation on the subject. PFO dude.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:54 PM   #38
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Altis = ignorant to automotive lighting systems .... fact! LOL , just because you say its an indisputable fact, and keep repeating it (for emphasis) based on your own opinions or findings, doesn't make it so. Wow..... you really are drinking the good "kool aid" up there in our nations capital, aren't you? You are missing the whole point on what fog lights actually do, and instead are focusing in on what you perceive people use fog lights for, and are ignoring what benefit they actually provide. Very narrow minded view and is not helpful to any insightful conversation on the subject. PFO dude.
I'm at least trying to provide information, with sources. You don't even attempt to disprove anything I've said. I don't mean to say there's only one way to use them, but I'm illustrating why Ford makes them off by default (as this relates to the OP). I've used them for finding snow-covered speed bumps (casts shadows) and nasty cottage driveways... certainly not the "intended use".

I'm up for being wrong, I don't hold the information dear to my heart... but I need contradicting facts for that to happen.

Thanks for contributing, though.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:33 PM   #39
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I'm at least trying to provide information, with sources. You don't even attempt to disprove anything I've said.

I'm up for being wrong, I don't hold the information dear to my heart... but I need contradicting facts for that to happen.

Thanks for contributing, though.
Really.... where are your facts? I only see your posts with your opinion, not stating anything really.
But, since you don't want to actually search the internet for yourself, here is some quotes from respected lighting engineers:

Excerpt's from Daniel Stern lighting pages:

Quote:
The fog lamps' job is to show you the edges of the road, the lane markings, and the immediate foreground. When used in combination with the headlamps, good fog lamps weight the overall beam pattern towards the foreground so that even though there may be a relatively high level of upward stray light from the headlamps causing glareback from the fog or falling rain or snow, there will be more foreground light than usual without a corresponding increase in upward stray light, giving back some of the vision you lose to precipitation.
When used without headlamps in conditions of extremely poor visibility due to snow, fog or heavy rain, good fog lamps light the foreground and the road edges only, so you can see your way safely at reduced speeds.
Another quote from the NHTSA:
Quote:
Fog lights
Despite what their name may suggest, fog lights alone are not enough to make your car visible while driving in fog. They are meant to be used in combination with your headlights during foggy, rainy or snowy conditions. According to online auto lighting consultant and supplier Daniel Stern Lighting , fog lights are designed to create a bar-shaped beam of light that illuminates the edge of the road, the road markings and the immediate foreground. That way, even if your headlights are causing glare, the fog lights will help you stay on the road.
Another quote from an AAA webpage on when to use your foglights:

Quote:
In Heavy Snow/Fog
If you're wondering when to use your fog lights then consider this. Original manufacturer fog lights are often closer to accent lights than actual fog lights. However, they do serve a purpose; they help other drivers on the road be able to see you coming better in heavy fog or snow. If you're driving along in heavy fog at night and there is a lot of oncoming traffic that is a good time to use your fog lights. They won't always light up the road for you but they will definitely ensure that oncoming traffic is able to see you a whole lot better. Some cars actually come equipped with fog lights on the back as well for this very situation. The same goes for heavy snow. Snow can create white out conditions and this is another example of when to use your fog lights. Having them turned on will help the other drivers see you a little better and limit the chances of having a major accident.

In a Residential Area in Heavy Fog/Snow
Driving slow through a residential area is another great example of when to use your fog lights . In this case the fog lights actually can help you see through the fog a little bit better as they are usually angled toward the ground and will help you make it out a little easier. It also gives bikers and other pedestrians a better chance of seeing you coming. This will certainly help you avoid a situation that is really unpleasant for everyone involved. Now you know when you use your fog lights.
It is interesting to note; many websites that try to state that fog lights produce unwanted glare to oncoming drivers in certain conditions also state that dipped high beams or DRL's (Daytime Running Lights), also produced unwanted glare in the daytime to oncoming drivers...Ummm, wait, what? Isn't that the intention? So that other drivers see you coming??! Wow, what ignorant idiots! That tells me the how much weight to give their arguments on their blogs..... since the invention of DRL's, daytime accidents and deaths have gone down by a drastic margin (yes, I'm sure I could look up the statistics, but, I think most of us can agree that even a single life saved is good thing and worth it). And, I for one, being an avid motorcycle rider, want other motorists to see me at all times, and without a bright headlight, lets face it, it ain't happening!
For the argument that the light may cause driver's to "fixate" on your car instead of the road, well, that is "poppycock", and if you do that, you need to go back to driver's ed. One thing they teach you, and one should always strive to practice is NEVER look at an oncoming car's headlights, especially on narrow single lane roadways, it will only ruin your nightvision and cause you to veer from your lane. Even someone approaching you with high beams shouldn't cause you to loose your night vision if you look away and towards the opposite side of the road (your side).... its still annoying, no doubt, but, you can deal with it and still see where you are going. Good luck out there!
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:16 PM   #40
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Pozi, I disagree with the notion that Altis has been throwing baseless facts:
Quote:
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Quote:
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Additional Info: UK Gov Highway Act.. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAn...code/DG_069859

Note 226 and 236.
Note that in all your quotes, it talks about snowy/rainy/foggy conditions. No one (including Altis) disagrees that fog lights are a *good* idea in that case.
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