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Old 12-07-2011, 12:50 AM   #31
AMMO-Duke
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I sincerely apologize to everyone for my little screw-up here. I need to take a step back and be more scientific on my approach.

Here is what I plan to do:

Configuration #1
-Return my ECU to stock
-Re-connect the IMRC system(solenoid and module/actuator) to my vehicle so it operates as original
-I do not actually have the flaps anymore, but this should not matter. The IMRC module/actuator arm does not know or care if it is connected to something. Let me know if you agree or disagree.
-Visually verify operation of IMRC in all situations(engine off, start, idle, different throttle positions, and shutdown)
-Datalog at the same time to verify IMRC function in ECU matches/makes sense

Configuration #2
-Tune ECU with same tune I had before/during removal of IMRC flaps
-Visually verify operation of IMRC in all situations
-Datalog at the same time

Configuartion #3
-Tune ECU with tune where I disable IMRC
-Visually verify there is no IMRC operation
-Datalog to verify no IMRC operation

I believe this will confirm/verify everything as it works on my 2005 D2.0.

Unfortunately, I will not have time to do this until Saturday morning. But, this gives everyone the opportunity to let me know if there is anything else I can do.

My plan is for this to give us a better understanding as to what is happening in the D2.0 ECU/tuning for IMRC. I also want to verify if my tunes created an anomaly not experienced by others. This might explain why my results with IMRC flap delete differs from others.

Please comment if you think something need to be changed/added to this.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:11 AM   #32
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"In the 2.3 wiring, Pin 26 switches on IMTV, Pin 43 switches on IMRC, and Pin 50 is the data return signal from IMRC module."
Correct! Based on the 2007 Ford wiring manual (so far so good).

"In the 2.0 wiring, Pin 43 still switches on IMRC, but the data return signal now goes back to Pin 26 instead of Pin 50. Why the heck would they do this? Why not just keep data going to Pin 50 and disable 26?"

That my friend is what I have been trying to figure out all this time. It suggest a 'tri-state' condition (possible states being 'on','off' and 'null'). If the module is (as assumed) a simple switch to indicate when the IMRC module is open or closed, then why have a switched ground? And why would the sensor wiring be 'data' (white recall is twisted pair).



"Also, it perplexes me that there is no data return from the IMTV. How could the ECU not need to know that IMTV is functioning?"
Agree! But I don't know how the IMTV 'does it's thing'. It could be that the IMTV is a simple vacuum motor affair. Ford would know the precise vacuum at all RPM range and simply use the indicated pin 26 to prevent further operation at some RPM. I strongly suspect that there may be a correlation, like a feedback loop between the IMRC and the IMTV.

"Looking at the picture, the actuator also looks similar to the IMRC"
"I still can't get over why there is no data return from IMTV."

If we assume (ouch!) that the two are working in tandem, then there would not be a need for a second data collector if it is just going to report the same data as the first data collector. At least, that is what it suggests to me.

"The IMTV solenoid is identical to the IMRC solenoid, it is the same part number and is bolted to the intake right next to it. It has a separate vacuum port right next to the IMRC port."
What we need to know is if the vacuum motor is different. If it has a different spring rate, Or even better, a sprung actuator? What I am suspecting (hoping for?) is a vacuum motor response that exhibits a high state of hysteresis. (note: explain: While the IMRC could take it's sweet time moving from open or closed (might actually be desirable), the IMTV I think would need to actuate very quickly else you would have a state transition where by the intake runner lengths are 'undefined'. That would not be desirable).

"that would mean that the IMRC flaps are fully open when you start the vehicle. "
All that means is that the IMRC has nothing to do with aiding a cold start. It's all about smooth operation at low RPM. Per what BowerR64 stated ( and I think he is correct), "to increase the velocity of the air into the intake valves at lower rpms"

"I would like to quote you here...."
My Mommy is feeding me wine and sympathy. Well, at least wine.

I got to absorb all this. Maybe felixthecat will grace us with a wire color check oo his ST. That may help (or not!).
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:31 AM   #33
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"The IMRC module/actuator arm does not know or care if it is connected to something. Let me know if you agree or disagree."
Agree
"Please comment if you think something need to be changed/added to this."
Confirm polarity of ECU pin 26 and pin 50. Does pin 26 change states (ground or float) as discussed. Is pin 50 always ground? I don't know if we should trust the manuals totally. I suspect that pin 50 is switched and that there just showing the 'normal state' as ground always. Maybe that pin 26 follows suite?
To check the pins >>>
You use a VOLTMETER. Do not use an ohmmeter (that happened at one time for something else to someone else who did not understand the differences. I don't recall what but it is just a boilerplate warning anymore. sorry for yelling!)
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:54 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMMO-Duke View Post
Problem!!!!

I may have been wrong on something. I was just sitting here with the IMRC solenoid and I thought, I wonder what resting position it is in? Guess what. As it sits in my hand, it has the IMRC module/actuator vacuum line open to atmosphere. Intake manifold vacuum line is closed. If this is the same resting position in the vehicle, that would mean that the IMRC flaps are fully open when you start the vehicle.

What we really need is someone with a completely stock vehicle to verify.

I gotta go to bed before I do any more damage.
I was just going to come and post this, i went down stairs and i looked at my stock IM (the one i removed the flaps from was a new one i bought just to modify) I kinda wished i had kept the new one stock and modified my used one but i figured the new one would be even better with out all the carbon build up on it.

The vacuum actualy pulls the flaps closed so when its warm the flaps may be pulled some what closed. After the vacuum leaks out then i think the flaps slowly open back up.

When i took off my IM the first time i removed the PCV it sat for about 5-6 hours before i tinkered with it. While i was tinkering i pulled off the vac line going to the diaphram and i heard a big gasp of air as the plunger in the diaphram moved back to its natural position. The line was actually holding the flaps partly open when sealed.

Another note i read on cold starts, i noticed when mine reved up on a cold start if i didnt sit and let it return to an idle i would have issues the next time i went to start it.

I remember reading some one said that at the start when it revs up when cold its a lean condition to heat the cats up quickly. I understand the idea and i get why it does it but IMO its putting more wear on the car and i dont like it. Specially when the car has been setting overnight i know all the oil has ran back down into the pan and then it revs up to like 2K? not for me.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:27 AM   #35
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Reading all this is great, Now a thought for my 23, since it has both imrc & imtv. What is your thoughts on deleteing the imrc on a 23 get me? Or is it similiar to a 20 to get the car rolling in rpm's? Is that what the imrc is suspose to do? Right now my check light is on= 2004 & the sct say's the imrc is stuck on the short runners, I think thats what's going on. I'll check out after I get to work today. Just for the heck of it, it drive's good w/ rpm & has a slight bog on the bottom. I guess that would be like adding a cossie w/o a tune for that manifold. & what would you tune for= more timing & fuel on the bottom, up to 3000-3500rpm or what? I'm just guessing here. Sorry for the thread jack, but since you guys are talking 'bout the imrc, I figured you wouldn't mind if I through in imtv to the mix. thanx again, this is all new to me= Im learning.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:49 PM   #36
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BowerR64,

"I remember reading some one said that at the start when it revs up when cold its a lean condition to heat the cats up quickly. I understand the idea and i get why it does it but IMO its putting more wear on the car and i dont like it."

I believe this may be true. I would not say "lean condition" but maybe "more lean than would otherwise be necessary". The more I learn about tuning, the more I believe that Ford's #1 priority was emissions(not their fault, they are just trying to meet EPA standards). Examples:
-The Cat being so close to the head
-IMRC flaps creating a more complete burn during combustion
-Running more lean than would otherwise be necessary
We could go on and on....it all points to the same thing.

Unfortunately, these things are not always in the best interest of the engine and IMO sometimes stand in the way of efficiency and running correctly.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:03 PM   #37
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felixthecat,

"What is your thoughts on deleteing the imrc on a 23 get me? Or is it similiar to a 20 to get the car rolling in rpm's? Is that what the imrc is suspose to do?"

I think we are all in agreement that the primary function if IMRC is to create high air velocity inside the intake port at low rpm's. We are NOT in agreement as to what effect this has. It is my opinion that is is purely for emissions and the engine will run as well or better without IMRC even without tuning. However, others have experienced negative effects. So the jury is still out on this, hopefully we can figure it out and come to a consensus.

"the sct say's the imrc is stuck on the short runners"
"has a slight bog on the bottom"


This makes perfect sense. SCT defines IMRC as the IMTV. Since the long runners help at low rpm, I would expect that you would lose bottom-end when stuck on the short runners.

"what would you tune for= more timing & fuel on the bottom"

I do not want to comment on the tuning for this. I think I know, but I have no experience with the 2.3 and do not want to spread possible bad info.

"Sorry for the thread jack"

You are not threadjacking at all. I hope more people will offer their experiences with this. All these little clues will help.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:31 PM   #38
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The sct flasher say's imrc is stuck open. I check it out tommorrow. That I believe is what you guy's call the "tumbler flaps". The car runs great w/ throttle, But has a boggy condition under light throttle, & this is w/ a 91 octane tune. IMRC= intake manifold runner condition & IMTV= intake manifold tuning valve, I'm getting it now. I think this all started the other morning, when it popped thru the air cleaner, & I didn't let the car warm up. By the way the code is P2004= imrc stuck open. I wonder what is going on?
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:56 PM   #39
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I think we may be confusing things a bit.

You are correct on this. Here is what we are using:
Ford definition of IMRC=tumbler flaps-right in front of intake port on head
Ford definition of IMTV=device that changes from long/short runners(only on 2.3)

Here is the confusing part:
SCT definition of IMRC=device that changes from long/short runners

So, I believe your code is pertaining to the IMTV, it is just that SCT calls this the IMRC. It depends on which side of the fence you are standing on when you say it. It is enough to make you scream!!!

I am just trying to keep us on the same page. I am usually not this anal, but this issue has never been resolved because the definitions go to hell and everyone either quits or gives up with a headache.

So I will be very interested in exactly which device is failing on you car. Hopefully it will make sense with what I said above.

Thanks for your input and keeping with us on this.
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:08 PM   #40
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I beleive the IMRC is what's going on. I'll grab the IDS from the service dept. & check it out tommorow. I'll get back w/ you. Thanx
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