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Old 12-06-2011, 07:19 PM   #21
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If memory serves me correctly the flaps stay open once they go to the open position. Then once you shut the car off they close again and are ready for start up. Just did the delete. Dont even need the system with a good tune!
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Old 12-06-2011, 07:22 PM   #22
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I just finished verifying things. My theory of operation in my last post is correct, however, there is a twist. There is a one-way valve built into the intake manifold for the IMRC vacuum port. So, if you turn your engine off, the flaps may very well stay closed against the return spring. If the IMRC system has no leaks, the flaps may still be closed when you start the engine. But if there is a small leak, the return spring will overcome the vacuum as it decreases and the flaps will be open when you start the engine.

Also, the solenoid has what appears to be a filter on the opposite side from the vacuum lines. This would make sense. Somehow the solenoid must release vacuum from atmosphere for all of this to work correctly, otherwise, it would not be able to open the flaps at part throttle since there is still vacuum in the intake manifold.

I also checked my old datalogs for IMRC function. The IMRC ad-counts are at "0" when the engine is idling. The ad-counts switch to "1" when activated at certain rpm/throttle positions. This verifies my theory of IMRC functioning in ECU.

This is all sort of fun....does that mean I'm weird?
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Old 12-06-2011, 07:38 PM   #23
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"If memory serves me correctly the flaps stay open once they go to the open position. Then once you shut the car off they close again and are ready for start up."

In reply to your post, my datalogs reveal that IMRC opens and closes constantly throughout driving every time the parameters are exceeded or dropped below. They always close when you go back to idle so will be closed when you shut off your engine. This is how IMRC is set up to function in the tune. Unfortunately, I never datalogged for IMRC when I still had factory tune. This could possibly be different.
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Old 12-06-2011, 07:47 PM   #24
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"Also, the solenoid has what appears to be a filter on the opposite side from the vacuum lines."
AaaaHA! so that makes sense. The solenoid is a 2 way. with the intake valve, then the 'rest' position is 'open to intake'. When the ECU switches the solenoid, it 'opens to atmosphere' releasing the vacuum (and flaps open). Now ref the schematic. Note that pin 26 is a switched ground. Pin 50 is not. But how the IMTV works then is a question. unless as I have opined, it just moves opposite of the IMRC flaps.

"This is all sort of fun....does that mean I'm weird?"
Well, maybe yes or maybe no. but you have company!

Add>> So what moves the IMTV? What is it exactly? I always thought some sort of rotary valve but I really have no idea.
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:33 PM   #25
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When i got my car it was bone stock no mods at all. When i started it it reved up about 1.5-2k for a few seconds and then dropped. After some asking around i was told it did this to heat up the cats for emissions i guess?

After a few tunes i asked Tom if he could tune that out i dont care for it. Specially with a fairly loud exhaust it just makes it louder it seems.

Everything was fine till i took out the tumble flaps then that high rev start came back for some reason. A few logs and Tom had that fixed.

Last night it dropped below 30 and now the high rev start is back just like that quicktime program, it wont qo away.

I didnt really find removing the tumble flaps an improvement. I like the idea that now i dont have to worry about sucking broken bits of flaps down into my intake valves but i didnt feel any gain from it.

Maybe i need to have Tom work on it a little more?

I think i read somewhere that the mustangs had these flaps put in their intakes first and they call them charge forward flaps or something. Now they claim its not for emissions its to increase the velosity of the air into the intake valves at lower rpms. That makes more sence to me then "tumble flaps"

It maybe tumbeling the air but i also understand that when you close down an opening that has the same amount of air trying to get threw the velosity of the air will increase.

Just like putting your finger over a garden hose. fully open it flows good but you put your thumb over part of the opening and it SHOOTS OUT! IMO this is the same idea they are trying to do.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:14 PM   #26
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This is very interesting.

I never had a high rev start with factory or when I started tuning. I also had no change at all when I deleted the tumble flaps. I drove around for a few weeks with the flaps removed before I changed the tune. Once I tuned for flap removal I did experience a high rev start similar to yours. I believe this is because I increased timing in the bottom end. Anyways, I compensated for it and all is good.

It is amazing that we could have such different results. I wonder if the difference is in the tuning since we both had tunes before deleting the flaps. Tom is 10,000 times more experienced than I am, maybe I did something different. I'm curious, is your tune for 93 Octane?
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:21 PM   #27
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"That makes more sence to me then "tumble flaps"
BowerR64 >> We are trying to avoid terms like "tumble flaps". as you have noted, use of such terms is confusing. the proper term is IMRC. There is also the IMTV equipped on D2.3. Please read back a few posts for details, but apparently AMMO-Duke and just recently Slkfucusdvr have been successful in recreating the IMRC function in the tune. Were currently trying to figure out how it is driven in the system.

BTW! Slkfucusdvr >> Did you do the tuning or else who? Do you have details on what was changed?
Thanks
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:25 PM   #28
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"I never had a high rev start with factory or when I started tuning."
Kibitz >> I always have a high rev start unless the engine is already warm. I do have a tune for 93 octane. I had the high rev start with the factory tune as well. Hmm! curiouser and curiouser! (high rev start defined as about 1800RPM for maybe a minute depending on temps)
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:49 PM   #29
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S0C0nFused,

I have been thinking.

In the 2.3 wiring, Pin 26 switches on IMTV, Pin 43 switches on IMRC, and Pin 50 is the data return signal from IMRC module. I am just making sure I am right on this, I am not nearly as good as you on these diagrams.

In the 2.0 wiring, Pin 43 still switches on IMRC, but the data return signal now goes back to Pin 26 instead of Pin 50. Why the heck would they do this? Why not just keep data going to Pin 50 and disable 26?

Is it possible that by sending data signal back to Pin 26, they are fooling the ECU into thinking that IMTV is still there. That way, they could go from the 2.3 to the 2.0 without changing any software functioning in the ECU?

Also, it perplexes me that there is no data return from the IMTV. How could the ECU not need to know that IMTV is functioning?

Have you already pointed this out? I am not sure I am doing any good at this point. I would like to quote you here.... "(I think. Perty sure anyway. I have no idea what I just said! MOMMY!)"

Also, since I have never seen a 2.3, I looked up the part drawings on the Ford parts website. The IMTV solenoid is identical to the IMRC solenoid, it is the same part number and is bolted to the intake right next to it. It has a separate vacuum port right next to the IMRC port. Looking at the picture, the actuator also looks similar to the IMRC actuator, but it does not show a part number to verify. So, mechanically the 2 systems appear to be almost identical and must operate almost identical since they have the exact same solenoid which we know "opens to atmosphere". I still can't get over why there is no data return from IMTV.

Feel free to disregard all of what I said. I am purely speculating since I have never touched a 2.3.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:34 PM   #30
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Problem!!!!

I may have been wrong on something. I was just sitting here with the IMRC solenoid and I thought, I wonder what resting position it is in? Guess what. As it sits in my hand, it has the IMRC module/actuator vacuum line open to atmosphere. Intake manifold vacuum line is closed. If this is the same resting position in the vehicle, that would mean that the IMRC flaps are fully open when you start the vehicle.

What we really need is someone with a completely stock vehicle to verify.

I gotta go to bed before I do any more damage.
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