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Old 12-04-2011, 01:14 PM   #1
AMMO-Duke
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More Info on Tumble Flap Delete

Before anyone gets too upset, I am not re-creating this subject. I have read all previous posts on tumble flaps. After recently performing this myself, I have had a different experience than some previous members that I think will help some of you. I am not going to go through the "how-to's" as this has already been well covered in previous threads.

Car: 2005, ZX4, D20, 5 speed, 120K miles
Mods: CAI, stock exhaust w/cats removed, 93 Oct Tune(I have SCT Pro-Racer Package, thanks SCT for a great product!)
Note: As you know, the D20 only has tumble flaps, no IMRC.

My reasons for removing tumble flaps:
#1 - I took the intake manifold off a while back to replace the thermostat and perform PCV delete when I noticed that the tumble flaps were wearing through the inserts(where they pivot) and small pieces were breaking off of the insert. My engine had already ingested 3 or 4 pieces some as big as 1/4 inch!
#2 - Increased performance/drivability. As previously stated, tumble flaps are primarily an emissions device. I cannot come up with any reason why performance/drivability would not improve. It has been said before that they help the engine run better at cold start and low rpm. I found this to not be the case.
POSSIBLE EXCEPTION: The coldest it gets where I live is the 20's, If you are facing sub zero temps, maybe the flaps help. Even in this case, I believe you can compensate by having your favorite tuner richen the cold start AFR.
#3 - The Duratec has too much junk bolted on it. I jump on any chance to remove parts and simplify! Especially if I can make it run better at the same time.

Here is what happened:
First, I disconnected the tumble flap actuator from the tumble flap control rod and wired the flaps in the open position. I left the actuator hooked up and working so the ECU would not know anything had changed. I drove around like this for a couple of days.
Results? Cold start and Idle quality was unaffected. I noticed a definite improvement in throttle response and low-end part throttle power/driveability. (And I thought it ran great to begin with)

Second, I performed tumble flap removal(which was covered in previous threads). At this point, I still left the actuator hooked up and working. Same results as above.

--Even if you don't go past this point, I would say it is definitely worth it.

Third, I performed tuning to disable and remove the tumble flap actuator. This part gets very interesting because the tumble flaps were actually controlled by the IMRC function in the ECU. This is significant because the IMRC adds a bunch of timing(a big jump) when activated even though the D20 does not physically have IMRC. Once I disabled IMRC, and added the timing back in manually, I created a timing curve more suited to the D20 with no IMRC. No CEL either, in-case you were wondering.

Results? WOW! Overall, a noticeable difference! Throttle response is much improved as well as low-end/mid-range power/driveability. The car is more fun to drive, and I thought is was great before I started this mod.

BOTTOM LINE: I would highly recommend this to anyone, even if you don't get as far as the tuning.

Also, the other day, it started and ran just fine as I was scraping ice off the windshield. No cold start issues at all.

Daryl


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Old 12-04-2011, 01:50 PM   #2
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"Note: As you know, the D20 only has tumble flaps, no IMRC."
The 'tumble flaps' as they are popularly called ARE the 'IMRC'. What you mean is that the D20 does not have IMTV. IMTV was only available on the D2.3 ST. So all this is a bit confusing. I.E. "This is significant because the IMRC adds a bunch of timing(a big jump) when activated even though the D20 does not physically have IMRC." But, after all that, what your saying is that you can tune around the need for the IMRC 'IF' you don't have sub-zero temps (generally). OK. Question >> as lots of folks can testify, the D2.0 is 'awash' in fuel during cold start. Your adding even more fuel? (This actually might make sense if you think of the IMRC as a sort of choke).

Add: Thinking. BowerR64 did this and had problems, but he is in Kansas City. So, as compared to his experience, is the altitude, humidity and temps what the IMRC is made to compensate for? I bring this up only in that, I am sure someone else also had problems after removing the IMRC, and they were also from a northern clime. So it is feasible to produce a 'tune' that can compensate for these variables without the IMRC?
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Old 12-04-2011, 03:49 PM   #3
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Great questions! It is my understanding that IMRC and tumble flaps are 2 different things. Intake Manifold Runner Control effectively changes the runner lengths on the 2.3 to make more torque at all rpm's. The 2.0 does not have this. I believe that what you call IMTV, and what I call IMRC, are actually the same thing. What I call tumble flaps are the butterfly valves inside the intake directly in front of the port on the head. It is my understanding that these do not change the effective runner length. What they do is create high velocity airflow directed toward the top of the intake port at idle and low load. The purpose of this is to create a more complete fuel burn which lowers emissions. It is also my understanding that the 2.3 has both IMRC and tumble flaps, 2 different things. I do not have experience with the 2.3, so I may be wrong.

"Question >> as lots of folks can testify, the D2.0 is 'awash' in fuel during cold start. Your adding even more fuel? (This actually might make sense if you think of the IMRC as a sort of choke)"

I am not sure about this. The richest commanded A/F ratio I can find for cold start-up is 12.8:1 at minus30degrees coolant temp. I would not consider this 'awash' in fuel. I think you are on the right track here, but I would not compare it to a choke. Because the tumble flaps create a more complete burn, they allow the engine to start on a leaner fuel mixture than would work otherwise. My theory is that if you remove the tumble flaps you can compensate with a richer start-up A/F ratio for very cold temps. This is just a theory, it would be great if someone has done this at sub-zero temps to either prove me right or wrong.

No, I do not believe that Tumble Flaps or IMRC compensates for altitude/humidity/temps. At most, tumble flaps allow a bit leaner fuel mixture at cold start-up. Once again, this is just my theory. I consider myself a beginner in the tuning world, so maybe a more experienced tuner can say if I am right or wrong.

As for the last part, I too am curious as to why 2 other people had problems in colder environments. In reading their posts, I got the impression that they had problems at normal operating temps/driving around, not just at cold start-up. This does not make any sense to me.
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Old 12-04-2011, 05:36 PM   #4
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OK, I was thinking. We don't have to speculate on how to tune for tumble flap/IMRC/IMTV Delete. It is done every time someone adds an aftermarket intake.

This begs the question: Do people up north with aftermarket intakes have serious issues with cold start?

Wether or not I am wrong is kind of irrelevant. My original point still stands. I see no reason not to do this mod. Unless you are not interested in performance, which begs the question: Why are you in the Duratec Performance forum?

Another thought. I wonder if the guys that had problems with this mod still had factory tunes? I already had a tune when I did the mod. So maybe that is the difference.

Ideas??

Daryl
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:33 PM   #5
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I am just trying to be 'authoritative' on this as it has come up in the past and caused a bit of confusion. So I checked (and cross checked) my books.
Intake Manifold Runner Control (IMRC) >> Present on both D2.0 and D2.3 motors (Ref: 2006 workshop manual. 2007 Wiring Diagrams). Note however that connectors may also be called "swirl control" (see below). These are popularly called "Tumble Flaps".
Intake Manifold Tuning Valve (IMTV) >> Only present on the D2.3 (Ref: 2007 Wiring Diagrams). The 'silver bullet' here is of course the detailed schematics and the component locator.
Warning: If using the Ford shop manuals, it is apparent that both the IMRC and IMTV electrical connectors are both referenced as 'swirl control'. The difference being that the D2.0 has '1' and the D2.3 has '2'.

"as lots of folks can testify, the D2.0 is 'awash' in fuel during cold start." I should explain this better. It is a common 'complaint' that at times, the engine does not start immediately (lets say 10 cranks vs. 4 cranks just for comparison. I don't have any real benchmark). When the engine does not start within 10 cranks. Often, the 'cure' is to hold the pedal down. This seems to work (it does for me). Prior discussions revealed that the ECU delivers quite a bit of fuel during cold start. Now, I can say that, if I start my car and run it just for a few minutes (moving it out of the garage on wash day typically). I WILL have this issue (8 times out of 10). However, I have never jumped out and did a sniff test at the pipe. But it sure acts like a typical 'flood' scenario.

No, I do not believe that Tumble Flaps or IMRC compensates for altitude/humidity/temps. I would agree with that.

"I got the impression that they had problems at normal operating temps/driving around, not just at cold start-up. This does not make any sense to me." There are 2 reported problems as I have read. There is a 'cold start' issue, and then there is a loss of low end torque issue (butt dyno, but we give the benefit if the doubt in this regard).

"Wether or not I am wrong is kind of irrelevant. My original point still stands. I see no reason not to do this mod."
Well, for me the answer is because I am not the only driver. The IMRC is credited with better cold starts and overall driveability. Where removal of the IMRC at this time has no basis in fact (A.K.A Dyno) to justify removal. FYI: I did start another thread asking about replacing the D2.0 intake with the D2.3 intake to gain the IMTV. IMHO. If we could make that work, that is where we would pick up some realistic gains.
(http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=274261)

"Another thought. I wonder if the guys that had problems with this mod still had factory tunes?" Some did, others had custom tunes. Ditto for the aftermarket intakes.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:46 PM   #6
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OK, I am all for getting everyone on the same page. Let's go with your definitions from here on out. Unfortunately, this means that there is a lot of confusion out there on which one is which and I have added to it. So, I removed IMRC(tumble flaps/swirl plates) from my 2.0 which does not have IMTV. Only the 2.3 has IMTV which changes the runner length. Right?

This creates a problem, but kind of makes sense at the same time. The problem is that the tuning for the 2.0 has the IMRC set up to modify timing when activated. I thought that this timing change was meant for IMTV when it changes runner length. I have always been led to believe that changing runner length is what caused the timing to need modifying so I assumed that the tuning was actually supposed to be controlling IMTV. So if I am wrong here and the timing is supposed to change when IMRC(tumble flaps) activate, is the timing supposed to change again on the 2.3 when IMTV activates? So the 2.3 would have 2 timing modifications (1 when IMRC activates and another when IMTV activates). Or are they both activated at the same time? Which would make me ask, which one is the timing being modified for? I hope someone more experienced in tuning can chime in and resolve this question for me.

I believe we are in agreement on most things now. One thing I disagree with is this:

"Where removal of the IMRC at this time has no basis in fact (A.K.A Dyno) to justify removal"

The benefits in removing IMRC(tumble flaps) are throttle response and part throttle power/driveability. This cannot be measure on a dyno. The only proof in this is driving your own vehicle and knowing how it runs. I do not dispute the fact that others have removed IMRC and had negative results. I just wanted to give everyone another perspective because I have had very positive results, even before tuning.

Also, I agree that adding 2.3 intake to 2.0 would theoretically make dyno measurable results because of addition of IMTV...if you could make it work.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:04 PM   #7
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Only the 2.3 has IMTV which changes the runner length. Right?
Correct!

"This creates a problem" Agree. I understand what you wrote, and I don't know. The reason I spoke up about the terms is that whenever we get into these conversations, confusion reigns as soon enough, no one is sure what someone is talking about specifically. Lets avoid this by using using proper terms. That way if you say IMRC (or IMTV) we all know exactly what your talking about.
1st order of 'business' to me would be > do all D2.3 have the IMTV? If so, then does the D2.0 and D2.3 use the same ECU? If so, then it is possible/probable that the IMRC/IMTV tuning is identical (but the wire from the ECU may not be run. If you want jack/pin let me know and I will look it up). I think that it is likely that it is 'YES' and 'YES' to my two questions. Hence, there 'probably' IMTV tuning in the D2.0. IMRC and IMTV share a common power and individual switched ground. For ref. here is the schematic

"The benefits in removing IMRC(tumble flaps) are throttle response and part throttle power/driveability." You need collaboration to make this 'universally' true. At this time, your the only one who has voiced a positive experience. What we doing here is to document how that came to be!

Add >> If your uncomfortable reading schematics let me know and I will mark it up.
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:40 AM   #8
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I think we are on to something here. I agree with your ideas. I will try and verify my wiring with your schematic sometime today. I suspect that everything will match up except that maybe the IMTV wires are missing on the 2.0.

I will continue using the Ford definitions for the purpose of this discussion.

Here is what I am beginning to think:

-Ford/Mazda/whoever creates the 2.3 with IMRC(tumble flaps) and IMTV(changes runner length)
-The ECU is designed to modify timing for the IMTV based on change in runner length
-Everything is good with the 2.3
-Ford creates the 2.0 as a cheaper alternative to the 2.3 without IMTV, but leaves the IMRC(tumble flaps)
-Ford uses the same ECU on the 2.0 and does not bother to change tuning for IMTV(which does not really hurt anything, it is just not optimized for the 2.0)
-At some point, the tuning world starts referring to the IMTV as an IMRC
-My tuning manual defines IMRC as "a device that allows the intake manifold to switch from a long runner to a short runner and vice-versa". It goes on to describe what happens when each runner is activated and why spark is modified. It is obvious to me that they are talking about the IMTV.
-So, if you are talking to a tuner and he says "IMRC" he is most likely referring to the IMTV
-If you are talking to a factory Ford guy and he says "IMRC" he is most likely referring to the tumble flaps

This would explain why there is so much confusion

If I am correct on this, it also explains why I had positive results when deleting tumble flaps. Basically, the 2.0 is not tuned correctly to begin with. It retains the original IMTV tuning to modify spark, but has no IMTV. When you delete the tumble flaps and disable IMTV in the ECU, you can then modify the spark to create a spark curve more suited to an engine that does not have IMTV. This all supports the fact that I gained big improvements in throttle response/bottom end power/drivability.

At this point, the open question in my mind is: Why did other people have bad results doing the same thing? I cannot think of any reason why removal of IMRC(tumble flaps) would not end in positive results from a performance standpoint. Even without tuning. I am referring to throttle response/bottom end power/drivability. The only exception being cold start issues.

If I am correct on all of this, I believe we have figured out why my results were positive.
If we can figure out why their results were negative, we might be able to resolve this issue.

I reserve the right to be wrong on any of this. These are just my ideas and I consider myself to be a beginner. I have no ego to hurt and welcome anyone's input.

Daryl
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:40 PM   #9
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"This would explain why there is so much confusion" >> LOL. Oh Man!!! Read other threads and after about 3 pages in it is totally fubar. You also have to be wary of even the Ford shop manuals. They co-mingle the two engines.

"Basically, the 2.0 is not tuned correctly to begin with. It retains the original IMTV tuning to modify spark, but has no IMTV."
>> I would opinion that as true. Even though there is no IMTV, you would still modify spark when the IMRC switches 'open' (as in the IMRC flaps move to the horizontal/max air flow position). As long as you have the proper controlling table, it really does not matter what they call them. However, Maybe TOM or SCT could confirm.


NOTE: For everyone following this thread that maybe are not so comfortable reading schematics.
The IMRC has a monitor (The "IMRC module". right side of the page). Now note that the IMTV does not have a 'module'. Nor could I find one (and I looked. traced all the relevant interconnects). OK. so obvious then(?) that the IMRC is using the IMRC module (which I believe is a simple vacuum switch located on the intake proper) as a part of its controlling logic. The IMTV is completely controlled by the ECU (called the PCM (power train control module. PCM = ECU)) Also note that the PCM/ECU grounds are switched. I.E they are not analog. There either 'on' or 'true' (ground provided to the relevant solenoid) or 'off'/'false'. output from PCM/ECU floats.
So that was a mouthful. Now, relevance >> If there is a table for spark, then there has to be a table/switch for the IMRC module(?). What is the condition(s) for the IMRC module to 'switch'?
Add> I will trace out the IMRC module and try to determine if it is analog/switched or data.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:09 PM   #10
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OK, I just finished looking at my wiring.

IMRC Control Module:
Connector pin 1 - WH/RD
Connector pin 2 - BN/RD
Connector pin 3 - GN/BU

IMRC solenoid:
Connector pin 1 - GN/RD
Connector pin 2 - BK/RD

IMTV None

ECU Connector A:
Pin 26 - BN/RD
Pin 42 - WH/RD
Pin 43 - BK/RD
Pin 50 - BK/YEL

Notes:
It appears IMRC control mod. pin 2 BN/RD is now wired to ECU Pin 26
It appears that the GN/RD wire that used to go to IMTV pin 2, now goes to IMRC solenoid pin 1
It appears that BK/RD wire from ECU pin 43 still goes to IMRC solenoid, just pin 2 instead of 1...this should not make a difference
I do not know where the ECU pin 50 BK/YEL wire goes, I did not see BK/YEL anywhere else.

If you map this out, I believe they basically replaced the IMTV with the IMRC control mod. Does this validate previous thoughts that the ECU is controlling the IMRC(tumble flaps) using the IMTV control circuitry/tuning?

See what you think. You are better at these diagrams than me.

Daryl
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