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Old 01-06-2012, 03:37 PM   #31
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That's some really good GD information. I live in Phoenix, AZ and I won't run 5w-20 just because of the summers. I tend to stick to 5w-30 syn (it helps me sleep at night). Wintertime I would run a 5w-20 though.

Take into account how you use your car and climate, then determine which data points of the oil are important and fit your needs and budget.
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:32 PM   #32
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Thanks. Your point about fitting the oil to your needs is well taken. Just for clarity, I am making recommendations for modified cars being used hard.

Castrol Elixion, Valvoline MST and Mobil1 ESP 5w-30 all meet the ACEA C3 standard (HTHS > 3.5) and do so with an oil weight that is very close to stock. Hell, early Zetecs came with 5w-30 factory fill, so for me it is an OE weight. Problem is, I cannot find anywhere that sells it so I am probably going to end up with Castrol Edge SPT 0w-30 (aka green or German Castrol as it is made in Germany) since every Autozone has that and it is A3 rated meaning it has an HTHS > 3.5 even though Castrol's PDS says it is 2.9. Sometimes you have to dig a little deeper.

If you want to geek out about this some more, check out this:
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html
Unfortunately, the HTHS column doesn't populate for every standard. If you want the best oil for hard use and aren't worried about a higher viscosity (like Tom), get one that is Porsche C30 or VW 507.00 compliant.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:23 PM   #33
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I woundnt say I am worried about the oil just that over the years on building , dyno and racing out engines 1000`s of them I have see what oils do and what not having the right wt oil does , I can go into almost any team shop and go almost anywhere in there I want to go with out escort , I see what they use not what they advertise they use

I build/built engines for dirt track , drag race , Blown Alc Hydros, rally , street , road race and many others and thats where I have found what oils work for diff conditions , compressions , fuels , turbo , SC etc , you will be hard pressed to find many people after 23 years that have engine failures with our engines

Biggest thing about oils is change them on time , if you run the engine hot change the oil , do this and you can get away with about any wt oil , me I like and recommend heavier wt oils , you cant hurt anything running to heavy a wt you can by running to light a wt

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Old 01-06-2012, 09:48 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
I woundnt say I am worried about the oil just that over the years on building , dyno and racing out engines 1000`s of them I have see what oils do and what not having the right wt oil does , I can go into almost any team shop and go almost anywhere in there I want to go with out escort , I see what they use not what they advertise they use

I build/built engines for dirt track , drag race , Blown Alc Hydros, rally , street , road race and many others and thats where I have found what oils work for diff conditions , compressions , fuels , turbo , SC etc , you will be hard pressed to find many people after 23 years that have engine failures with our engines

Biggest thing about oils is change them on time , if you run the engine hot change the oil , do this and you can get away with about any wt oil , me I like and recommend heavier wt oils , you cant hurt anything running to heavy a wt you can by running to light a wt

Tom
i agree with tom. personally i use brad penn 5w20 of joe gibbs2 oil which is 5w20. i i used it before and when i have taken apart the two engines of mine they were clean and bearings were beautiful.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:16 AM   #35
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I woundnt say I am worried about the oil just that over the years...

Tom
You misunderstand. I said you aren't worried about the impact of running a higher viscosity. As we have discussed in another thread, I am getting my oil much hotter for much longer than most people, so the fact that thick oil runs hotter is a major concern for me.

I agree with you 100% that fresh oil is critical and that the wrong viscosity oil can have serious consequences. Where we differ is on the use of thinner oils. I see upping the SAE viscosity as a last resort and not a guarantee of better protection. I suggest getting the lowest viscosity with a HTHS of 3.5 or greater that you can find. Doesn't mean I am right or you are wrong, just that I don't believe that you the SAE viscosity is enough information to make a good decision.

Based on that information, I think running 50wt oil is simply not necessary unless you are using it as a band-aid for other problems such as oil dilution from running too rich, excessive bearing clearance, heavy blow-by or lack of proper oil cooling. Put in a 30wt ACEA A3 or C3 oil and I think you will be just fine.

Whatever you choose, just make sure you keep it fresh and use a high quality filter.

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Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
you cant hurt anything running to heavy a wt you can by running to light a wt

Tom
I disagree. Modern engines are built with tolerances for specific weight oils. Thicker oil will cause problems. Early Zetecs had sticking valve lifters when people ran 40wt instead of 30wt. No big deal as the engine is non-interference, but if it weren't that could certainly have been ugly. I will admit that it is easier to damage an engine with too light an oil, but it is absolutely not the case that a heavy oil is not going to cause problems. If that were the case, everyone would just fill the sump with the straight 60wt that nitro guys run.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:23 AM   #36
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Tom, you and the rest of us that have been or are mechanics know all too well the "mechanic-buddy-told-me-it-was-this" crap story all the time. Usually its someone that watches Trucks! every morning and thinks they know everything. (example: radiator visibly leaking from plastic tank but the guy's friend said it was the water pump)

So... Your customer must have had one of those buddies.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:39 AM   #37
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Tom, you and the rest of us that have been or are mechanics know all too well the "mechanic-buddy-told-me-it-was-this" crap story all the time.
The counterpoint is the mechanic who thinks he knows everything based on what he has seen. Just because you see something doesn't mean you know what it really is or understand it.

Tom said "once you start modding your engine you need more protection with a higher wt oil". I agree that you need more protection for a modified engine that is being driven hard, but that doesn't mean you need a higher weight oil. As I have already demonstrated, you can buy a higher weight oil and not get better protection when it matters most.

Judging an oil's performance by the SAE viscosity is like judging an engine's performance solely by the displacement. Sure, in both cases, on average, the bigger the number the better chance you have of higher performance, but that is not true on the individual level. There are plenty of small engines that outperform larger ones. And, just like with engines, there are tradeoffs in relying solely on going for the big number.

The HTHS procedure and the resulting number is like the dyno test for oils. It tells you the real performance. IMO, relying on other numbers and claiming that you know the performance of the oil or engine is foolish.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:05 AM   #38
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Thats why you go to school and learn how it all works

I probably used a bad example... that it was something visible (right on top) but he just said it was something random and made it hard to convince someone their friend was wrong until you fix it. Cant quite apply that to the oil thing.

What you can apply is experience. Tom having built probably hundreds of the same or similar thing would have noticed a trend of blown seals and said "Im not using that weight oil anymore" if it was a problem.

You definitely need proper lubrication, and that means the right pressure in the right places along with the correct weight... Dont want to run 20w-50, which is a given of course. Two things I can understand Tom saying about needing thicker oil for higher performance engines: High performance being run hard will wear out pretty fast and having that thicker oil would somewhat help with bearing clearances. Also oil gets thinner as it gets hot... some of those high performance turbo systems get real hot.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:54 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by mikebontoft View Post
Tom, you and the rest of us that have been or are mechanics know all too well the "mechanic-buddy-told-me-it-was-this" crap story all the time. Usually its someone that watches Trucks! every morning and thinks they know everything. (example: radiator visibly leaking from plastic tank but the guy's friend said it was the water pump)

So... Your customer must have had one of those buddies.
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:31 PM   #40
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Also oil gets thinner as it gets hot... some of those high performance turbo systems get real hot.
Exactly. And this is why the HTHS test is so important.
First SAE number (#w) measured at 40C
Second SAE number (-#) measured at 100C
HTHS Test measured at 150C.

100C (212F) is not hot thus the second SAE number is not a good inidcator of oil protection in a high performance engine being run hard. That is why you need HTHS and not just the numbers on the bottle.
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