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Old 12-03-2011, 09:50 PM   #21
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10w30 is imo a little to thick to run in winter especially in your cold climate. By too thick I am referring to the 10 which represents viscosity at cold start up. 5w30 is better to get through the engine a hair quicker at cold start up. The 30 which represents viscosity at warmed engine temps is fine wherever you are. I use 5w30 all year.

Also engines produce they same amount of heat summer or winter. Its just in winter the heat is dissipated through the block/head much faster due to lower temps outside.

As far as engine hp #s differing due to different oil weight this is technically true. Meaning that the loss of hp due to a thicker oil providing more resistance to the rotational masses is somewhere around 10-12 decimal points out. You can't feel it or even measure it on a conventional dyno cause it is so small.
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
So your saying that I could drain 2 oils at 200 deg and you could tell me the 40wt from the 20wt ?
NO!

Your telling me that on a dyno that the same engine with 20wt will make less HP then the engine with 40wt ?
NO!

Your telling me that you can measure the thickness of an oil on a part at 200 deg and tell me if it is 20wt or 40wt ?
NO!

Because basically thats all I have said all along , How many engines have you tried these on and how many Hrs have you spent on a dyno ?

Tom

Last time. Either you agree or you don't, you have gone both ways Mitt. Vicosity is defined by rate of flow at a common temp. So yes 20 flows quicker than 40. It is a fact by the definition.

Your 2'nd question is worded backwards, 20 wt creates less drag, less drag equals more power at a fine enough scale.

I never stated anything about measuring oil on a part but look again to viscosity. Slower flow can often equal greater quanities on similar parts but for wearing parts lubricated by oil the thickness of oil is based on clearances, so they would remain equal. The difference is the speed the lubricant moves under pressure. Again vicosity thicker slower, slower greater heat exposure and rentention. Some cases a good thing and others cooking the lube.

What the heck does a dyno have to do with fluid dynamics? It is not a fine enough tool to measure the small gains that physics prove is correct.
Should I ask you how many research papers you have published on transportation concerns and issues? Both are equally non-sequitors in regards to this issue.

Bottomline lighter oils offer less drag on moving components. A fact.
Less drag equals more power. Vehicle manfacturers recognize this and that is why oil vicosity has dropped considerably across all passenger cars for the last couple generations.
Some vehicles may require heavier weights but for those designed for lighter oils using heavier can be problematic in some vehicles, I already iterated several cases. Engineering and science make up my career, technology in motorsports is my passion and playground.

You can ignore the science and I you and we both will be happier, no?
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:24 PM   #23
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Don't forget they are also using thinner oils due to better engine manufacturing and design with tighter tolerances than in the days of old.
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:33 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtKonaZX3 View Post
Don't forget they are also using thinner oils due to better engine manufacturing and design with tighter tolerances than in the days of old.
100% agree this is very true , but again using the engine for what Ford made it for the thinner oil is fine , using it for performance and running it harder still needs a better grade of protection , thicker oil , 180 thurmostat , cooler plugs etc , thats my opinion any way

I have said this a million times everyone needs to run what they think they should run , will 20wt oil hurt your engine running it performance wise if changed like it should , NO more then likely not , me I am not going to take the chance , will a 30wt hurt your engine to run it in the engine NO absolutely not , will the 30wt offer better protection yes it will

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Old 12-03-2011, 10:41 PM   #25
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A dyno has everything to do with an engine , we are and I have been talking about a performance engine from the start , If a heavier oil offers more protection and a dynojet dyno (which I own) which measures down to 1/10 of a HP cannot see the loss of power running the heavier oil then in my world thats everything ... better protection with no measurable loss of power ,a engine builders dream

I want to see what things do not read about them , If I have a question I go to where it counts the engine and or the dyno and what I am stating come from real world hands on experance of building , running , driving , tuning engines

Thats my story and I am sticking to it LOL

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Old 12-04-2011, 11:43 AM   #26
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Well thanks guys, I think what I'm going to do here is dump the 10W-30 I got right now, replace it with 5w-20 for winter, and in the spring and summer when I like to run the car hard, I'll run 5w-30.

Does that sound good for my engine set-up, and climates? My only fear is it does once or twice a winter sometimes get down to 10 degree's or so, so I think I just don't want to take the risk in the winter atleast, so I'll go with the stock recommendation for winter, and then bump it up in the spring and summer.

Does this sound good for a guy with a D23 with a CAI, and exhaust?
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:42 PM   #27
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I get all what your saying Tom. This is my 1st modern mill 4cyl, all alloy, dohc. I also did a bsd plug & have a windage tray= now it takes 6qtrs of oil & I use mobil 1. I'm used to using 40-50 wt valoline racing oil on a 351 cleveland & shim the oil pump for 80lbs of pressure. Or cut down the crank journals on steel crank 427 chev motor, for what I thought was a more responsive rpm motor. This thin oil stuff is about less fricton & bearings/rings/material or products & oils have come a little ways now. I use 5/20 mobil 1 in my car since new. I'm new to these motors, I'm still learning
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:56 AM   #28
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Interesting discussion. If you really want to know about oil go to the Bob is the Oil Guy Forums (BITOG). That is where oil pros hang out and geek out about this stuff on a level that will make your head spin.

I have spent some time over there and done some of my own research too. I called Ford RallyeSport UK and asked them what oil they run in the Formula Ford Zetec. They said 5w-40. The engines in those cars are nearly stock, so it may not seem like a great data point for this discussion, they have so much grip they spend more time at full throttle than anyone here ever will. They don't even slow down for corners that are major braking areas for those of us in production based cars.

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one in this thread has demonstrated that they are forming their opinion on the correct data. And while there are many, many facets to an oil, if we are to look at use under Tom's criteria of a modded car, driven hard, then the discussion should center around the HTHS rating.

HTHS = High Temperature, High Shear. In this test the oil is heated to 302° degrees then a machine tries to break the oil film (shearing) and the viscosity of the sample is measured, which correlates to the oil's ability to protect your bearings. Read more here if you want.

HTHS is the extreme use test for oil. While generally the higher SAE rating (20w-50, 0w-20 etc) correlates to a higher HTHS, it is not universally true, nor is the relationship linear. Many of the new group of synthetics with a large viscosity spread such as 10w-60 or 5w-50 show poor HTHS scores relative to these SAE numbers. So while Tom's statements about a higher viscosity giving better protection would chart out to be true on average, there is a lot of movement within the average that I think is important when you are talking about a modified engine being driven hard for extended periods of time.

Specifically, I say avoid 0w-40s. I think this was an oil that VW used (and maybe still does) that on the surface seemed to offer the best of all worlds - 0w when cold so better than 5w20 and 40 when hot so better than 5w-30 (the two oils that were factory fill over the life of the Zetec which is my test case). Yet you look at the HTHS numbers and some 10w-30s exceed it. I think that there was a high end (Redline perhaps) 5w-30 that had a better HTHS than M1 0w-40 (and I think the world of Mobil1). The numbers on the label aren't enough to make an educated decision. If I am going out on track, need to do a quick oil change, I'd take the M1 10w-30 over the 0w-40, which is contrary to what the label would lead you believe for high temperature protection.

Unfortunately, you cannot find HTHS rating on the label when you go to the store. You have to do some digging on the oil company websites, and even then, not all manufacturers publish it. But ultimately that is the number that you should look at when considering what oil to buy for a car that will see extended hard use. A score of 3.5 and above is where you should start your search, IMO. 4 is very good, and if you think you need 4.5 or higher, you should think long and hard about what else you could do rather than depend on your oil to bail you out.

HTHS isn't the only number that means anything, but if you are wanting a simple way to judge an oil before you go pound on your car, it is the best you can do, IMO. Almost everything else you need or want in an oil used in a high performance application trends in the same direction as HTHS too, so it is rarely going to cause a bad tradeoff. The label numbers aren't usually going to steer you in the wrong direction, but they aren't going to tell you all you need to know either.

Just my opinion. If you want an opinion that is worth more than what you paid for mine (nothing) then go to BITOG and get the real scoop. Or just ignore it all. A couple of times I ran regular Valvoline 5w-20 in my car on track and had oil temps hit 280°+. I looked at the rod bearings (which have seen the high side of 7500 RPM many times) after 130K+ and they show no signs of oil related wear. Yes, I went on to run synthetics and add an oil cooler, but if you are contemplating your first track day, unless you have an absolute monster engine, a fresh fill of what you normally run will be just fine. Go to the event, drive, have fun and don't worry about it. Really smart people design engines and oils in ways that bail out really stupid people all the time. A couple of hours running hard with new oil is not even close to the margin of error for stupid that is built into these products. Long term, depending on the over-engineering may not be the best idea, but if you are a first timer or only go once or twice a year, there is no other oil related check point than "full and fresh", so go have fun.
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:14 PM   #29
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:01 PM   #30
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FYI, the HTHS rating of 3.5 is not an arbitrary number I came up with. It corresponds to the Association des Constructeurs Européens d'Automobiles (ACEA or European Car Constructors Association) A3 and C3 standard. A3 is the standard for a High Performance gasoline passenger car motor oil.

Redline 5w-30 has an HTHS of 3.8.
Mobil1 ESP 5w-40 has an HTHS of 3.8 also.
Don't trust the SAE numbers.

Again, there is a lot more to this than the numbers on the bottle. There is a lot more to this than just HTHS numbers too, but, as I said before, IMO that is the best data point for modified engines and/or cars that see significant track time.
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