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Old 06-28-2011, 08:18 AM   #61
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http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...nversions.html

There are few people with the knowledge of Daniel Stern in automotive lighting. I think one of the reasons this becomes such a heated topic is because you get one group who sides with legality and scientific fact, and another that sides with the defense of what they've already or really want to purchase and a limited or trial and error type of experience. No one is really willing to objectively listen to the other.

Anyway, the link is to a really good article on the subject. There is no subjective, opinion or conjecture about. Just cold hard fact...take what you want from it....

Tests by the DOT and CalCoast Labs on Halogen headlights fitted with Xenon’s:

Test 1
Test 2
Test 3
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:21 AM   #62
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that's the same guy who told my friend about the H9s instead of H11s
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:53 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticbluebmw View Post
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...nversions.html

There are few people with the knowledge of Daniel Stern in automotive lighting. I think one of the reasons this becomes such a heated topic is because you get one group who sides with legality and scientific fact, and another that sides with the defense of what they've already or really want to purchase and a limited or trial and error type of experience. No one is really willing to objectively listen to the other.

Anyway, the link is to a really good article on the subject. There is no subjective, opinion or conjecture about. Just cold hard fact...take what you want from it....

Tests by the DOT and CalCoast Labs on Halogen headlights fitted with Xenon’s:

Test 1
Test 2
Test 3
Thanks! Great links!

A couple of things, though. Those tests were done almost 10 years ago. I can only imagine that aftermarket HID technology (heck, every technology for that matter) has changed immensely during that time. I wonder if it's possible that the aftermarket HID lights of yesteryear are inferior to those manufactured today?

The other thing I am curious about is that the reports don't specifically say why the bulbs failed. The only true narrative aspect of the tests are the abstracts. What color temperature were the bulbs? What the heck do those really pretty color blotch things mean? They leave many unanswered questions. As a psychology major I'm pretty used to reading research papers, but the test results in the links aren't informative enough for me to make a critical analysis of their findings.

Tony
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:59 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Tony407 View Post
What evidence do you have of this claim? Any road tests where a reputable source used aftermarket HIDs and tested them to see if the light was scattered? Of course they're not the "same", that goes without saying. If they were the same, they'd be the...same.
I dont have a source, but i can tell you that most of those pictures on the websites are photo shopped, they are trying to sell a product. However, having seen identical cars next to eachother, one with and one without HID output, i can 100% say that the output of HIDs in reflector housings is no better than the output of the stock halogen housings. In fact, the ST170 housings with stock halogens produce better output than SVT reflectors with 6000ks in them.

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Not true. I have low and high beams and they work quite well. The bulb base has a strong magnet which pulls the bulb backwards when you activate the high beams, and thus the light is aimed upwards. I was skeptical of this at first, but it seems to work well.
I haven't seen those particular kits, ill have to look into them.

Quote:
Are you just quoting something you read somewhere? I've had multiple cars with HIDs and not all of them were "unbeatable". My 2001 Maxima (with retrofitted 2002 OEM Maxima HIDs) were pretty good. My 2007 Infiniti M45 had awful HIDs. My 2009 Jaguar XF had phenomenal HIDs. My 2009 Cadillac CTS-V had mediocre HIDs.
im not pointing out on an individual car basis.. im point out in terms of the focus. In terms of whats available for your car, the Bi-xenon retrofit kit is easily the best. Honestly, the FX-Rs kit is the best headlight in the known automotive industry. Why anybody would spend money on anything else is beyond me.

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Right now I have my 2008 F150 with 5000K HIDs and they are FAR better for night time visibility than the stock halogens. My 2006 Mustang also has aftermarket 5000K HIDs and they are just as good. I get maybe one or two people that flash their high beams at me a month, which is about average or less than average compared to other cars I've owned (all stock, some halogen and some HID). Most of that flashing comes when I am cresting a hill and the beams shine directly into the face of the oncoming driver, which has happened many times before even with OEM lighting.
I have never been flashed, the fact that you are getting flashed means something is wrong.
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My eyes are in my head, so yes...the gain is definitely in my head.
Point is, 60% of the light is wasted because its not aimed properly. The light has more glare, and generaly output, instead of aimed directed output. Pull up to a wall, and look at your cutoff. On my headlights, the cutoff is a solid line, with almost zero lightsplash above it.

Your headlights however have splash all over the place, which is both why you get flashed, and why the headlight does not perform as well.

Quote:
I'm sorry you purchased bad HIDs or possibly didn't have them set up correctly. I too have had 6000K and thought the output was awful. For my eyes, 5000K lights up the road the best and gives me the most optimal view ahead. 6000K is just too blue for me, and I couldn't even tell the lights were on some times.

I know you're trying to contribute, which you've done extremely respectfully, but it seems as if your negative experiences with aftermarket HIDs has been due to poor purchasing choices (namely, 6000K bulbs), claims with no basis in fact (scatter), erroneous information (no high beams), and a false reliance on "popular opinion" (unbeatable output).

No disrespect, just pointing out some errors in your information.

Tony

Funny enough, the HID setup i had, is exactly the setup i have in my headlights now. Its not the kit, its the housing that makes the difference. I chose to use the 4300k bulbs because the 6000ks i have are over 4 years old now.




Like i said, im not going to bag on anybody for putting HIDs in reflector housings. But i will say this:

1. No matter how you argue it, the light output cannot match a true HID setup, and the gain over a halogen is minimal at best.

2. Its illegal for a reason, and you're in denial if you think that yours is somehow safer or better than what the government deems to be illegal.

3. For $270, you can have quite litterally the best headlight in the world. Why anybody wouldnt is beyond me.
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Old 06-29-2011, 01:28 AM   #65
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I'll have to look into the Retrofit kit...I'm all about having the best if it means I can have better nighttime vision w/o bothering others.

As far as being flashed, I have been driving for 23 years and have had almost as many cars and getting flashed is just part of driving, no matter what kind of headlights you have. Sometimes it's being on rural roads when other cars are few and far in between and other drivers' eyes get used to the dark and then BAM, when another car comes along their (my) headlights look brighter than they normally would. Other times it's due to hills. Other times it's just that other peoples' eye sensitivities vary (my step mother for example) and they flash half the drivers on the road thinking everyone has their high beams on. Never have I had a car (OEM or aftermarket lights) in which I was flashed excessively, and I do a lot of nighttime driving. In fact, I used to get paid to drive at night.

And until you've seen my headlights, it's impossible for you to judge mine. Generalizations and stereotypes have a certain amount of truth to them, but in no way are they absolute.

And I do use a wall at a local elementary school to shine my lights on to help me aim them. I'm just not seeing the glare you're talking about, and quite frankly it doesn't appear anyone else does either.

As far as illegality goes, I don't put all my faith into equipment laws and their ability to always make sense. I believe in most of them, and obey most of them, but at least in this instance I am making an exception. And I don't think I'll ever get pulled over for them because they simply don't bother anyone and they don't stand out from all the other types of headlights out there.

Tony
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:31 AM   #66
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Which retrofit source kit works best with the 2012? They have a ton of options.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:07 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony407 View Post
Thanks! Great links!

A couple of things, though. Those tests were done almost 10 years ago. I can only imagine that aftermarket HID technology (heck, every technology for that matter) has changed immensely during that time. I wonder if it's possible that the aftermarket HID lights of yesteryear are inferior to those manufactured today?

The other thing I am curious about is that the reports don't specifically say why the bulbs failed. The only true narrative aspect of the tests are the abstracts. What color temperature were the bulbs? What the heck do those really pretty color blotch things mean? They leave many unanswered questions. As a psychology major I'm pretty used to reading research papers, but the test results in the links aren't informative enough for me to make a critical analysis of their findings.

Tony
Actually Tony, Daniel Stern actually addresses that at the bottom of the article
"Please understand, marketeers will always be coming up with dazzling new pseudoscience, tempting new hype and sneaky new ways of trying to convince you to buy their stuff. It's what they do. This article will never go out of date, because the problems with HID kits are conceptual problems, not problems of implementation. Therefore, they cannot be overcome by additional research and development, any more than someone could develop a way for you to put on somebody else's eyeglasses and see correctly."

You do bring up a really good point though about the colour temp of the bulbs. Since you actually lose visibility of the lights with the higher the temperature, it would be interesting to know what the HID temp was.

But I still stick with the side of not putting HID's in stock reflectors. I have been trying to figure out what I am going to do with mine (when I get it), and I think I might look into this retrofit kit as well.
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:18 PM   #68
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Actually Tony, Daniel Stern actually addresses that at the bottom of the article
"Please understand, marketeers will always be coming up with dazzling new pseudoscience, tempting new hype and sneaky new ways of trying to convince you to buy their stuff. It's what they do. This article will never go out of date, because the problems with HID kits are conceptual problems, not problems of implementation. Therefore, they cannot be overcome by additional research and development, any more than someone could develop a way for you to put on somebody else's eyeglasses and see correctly."
This paragraph does not answer any of my questions.

I can put on someone else's eyeglasses and see just fine if they're bifocal or trifocal, if I look through the correct part.

I could also retrofit them and have a little flap come down with another set of lenses over the first set of lenses. The right combination might allow me to see just fine.

And there of tons of people out there with lens prescriptions identical to mine. We could swap glasses all day.

At any rate, it really sounds like this guy knows what he's talking about. But that doesn't mean his methods of testing are sound. Again, there is no way for me (or anyone for that matter) to analyze his findings based on the information in his results. It's too vague and confusing.

Tony
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:38 PM   #69
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C'mon Tony407, that was a very lame comeback.

I believe he meant normal eyeglasses. Don't try to sidestep it by getting into technicalities with bifocals and such. Technically you could put black tape all over your headlamps so that the HID's only come out at a certain angle with a nice cutoff, just like a projector. But neither that, or what you said are really smart things in the real world.

He really does seem to know what he is talking about, but I also have seen other articles on the same point, so I seem to think that they fall in line.

I am still really curious about the colour temp. When you think of a lot of the younger people (especially when this article came out), I think a lot of people wanted that blueish look. So if the bulbs being compared were an 8000k bulb or so, you would also loose a lot of lighting visibility.

To be a true comparison, I think that they would have to be 4300k - 5,000k temp.

P.S. Tony407. I've seen a lot of your other posts, and know that you know your electronics. Don't think I'm trying oo knock on you, I just strongly disagree with the whole HID thing (just like we got into it in another post). But I still have respect for what you, you got more balls then me to be pulling apart your brand new car like you did .

Also, if you do get a retrofit kit, let us know how that install goes (should you do it).
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:56 PM   #70
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Which retrofit source kit works best with the 2012? They have a ton of options.
in for this as well ^
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